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I was going to go into this whole spiel about how the SGA fandom has totally spoiled me in terms of whump, H/C and in-depth plots but I kept dithering about it because, well, I'm not all that fandom savvy. There's only three other fandoms total (and I'm sure you know what they are ;)) that I will venture to when I'm in need of some variety, and I don't venture for very long. Other than those three, I try not to venture as it's a scary fandom world out there :P
So I don't know if I keep having the misfortune of running into fics and fandoms where the authors seemsmore interested in the comfort aspect of H/C than the hurt, if (specifically in the case of Magnificent 7) I happen to like a character who, though liked, isn't the majority favorite (because, really, unless you're an Ezra fan the pickings are a tad slim) or if SGA really has spoiled me.
What do you all think? Has SGA (or maybe another fandom) spoiled you in some way (not just H/C wise)? Or are you a part of enough fandoms that offer enough good stories where you haven't noticed? Or do you think that, maybe, it's not a matter of being spoiled but a matter of fandom trends (For example, in fandom A angst seems to be more popular than whump, or fandom B humor is more popular than angst. I vaguely recall some fandom being chalked full of humor fic but very few drama fic. Can't remember which fandom, though)?
So I don't know if I keep having the misfortune of running into fics and fandoms where the authors seemsmore interested in the comfort aspect of H/C than the hurt, if (specifically in the case of Magnificent 7) I happen to like a character who, though liked, isn't the majority favorite (because, really, unless you're an Ezra fan the pickings are a tad slim) or if SGA really has spoiled me.
What do you all think? Has SGA (or maybe another fandom) spoiled you in some way (not just H/C wise)? Or are you a part of enough fandoms that offer enough good stories where you haven't noticed? Or do you think that, maybe, it's not a matter of being spoiled but a matter of fandom trends (For example, in fandom A angst seems to be more popular than whump, or fandom B humor is more popular than angst. I vaguely recall some fandom being chalked full of humor fic but very few drama fic. Can't remember which fandom, though)?
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Date: 2010-05-11 09:46 pm (UTC)From:Most of the time it seems a lick and a promise and not much substance. There is some good stuff, but for me it resides between mediocrity
I am probably not replying in the way you would like, but just trying to
give you my specs on it all. Like you, I am not all that savvy since I tend to stick with three, SGA being the main one.
I don't wander around the pages of ff.net looking for other communities......
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Date: 2010-05-11 09:55 pm (UTC)From:Other fandoms such as "NCIS", "CSI" and "ER" were slim pickings. My friend Beth could never find anything for "Burn Notice" or the "Unit" either.
I think its a sci-fi thing because the "Supernatural' fandom looks like it has a ton of stuff,(a freaking huge load of slash), but I'm not interested in reading in that fandom.
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Date: 2010-05-11 10:11 pm (UTC)From:As far as whump - I couldn't say really. I'm not as into the hurt side of H/C as you - in fact too many "hurt" details will cause me to tune out of a fic. It's just not one of my interests. But I do think most of the fandoms I've read in though have been at least as high on the whump scale as SGA.
As far as Magnificent 7 fic goes, though, that was a very whumpy fandom, moreso than SGA I think. And I've seen complaints from some that there's often too much hurt and not enough comfort in M7. But I agree with you on the Ezra thing. And what's up with that, seriously? Back when I was big into Mag7 a few years ago, Chris and Vin were at least as popular as Ezra, if not more so. Now it seems like it's all Ezra, all the time. And while I don't mind the character (and it does seem like that's where all the best writers are), he's not my favorite either. :S
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Date: 2010-05-11 10:53 pm (UTC)From:There is not enough h/c in some of my other fandoms, and I'm not sure I'm ready to venture writing in them yet. I actually have a little angsty tag for the last NCIS episode, Obsession. But I'm scared to post it! LOL I'm not so big on the physical hurt, since it requires so much research. Angst, emotional h/c... that I can do! And it's not so much the soothing talk, it's the friendshippy-ness, knowing there's someone the character can rely on. AND NOT SLASHY! hee hee.
That being said, yes, I do like to read slashy, angsty, emotional whump (nightmares, depression by way of physical injury, assorted broken-ness). Not many authors can hit those buttons (you do it so well! Minus the slashiness, of course!), so I'm left floundering.
But you're right. A lot of it is about comfort. Or dwelling so much on the hurt, the characters seem whiny. I know it's hard to balance, but it can be done. Strangely enough, authors writing AUs are grabbing my attention a little more these days.
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Date: 2010-05-11 10:58 pm (UTC)From:I do not get the Win-cest. What is that about? Only seen a few episodes, but I find it a little creepy. It's out of my comfort level.
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Date: 2010-05-11 11:43 pm (UTC)From:I kind of miss those days :/
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Date: 2010-05-11 11:48 pm (UTC)From:I feel that to be the case as well, because I recall the Andromeda fandom having a ton of really excellent and hardcore H/C. I was into the SPN fandom for a little while, back when the fandom was young and before the whole Wincest invasion, and there was so much to read that I couldn't keep up with it all, so finally gave up.
Plus sci-fi/fantasy, I think, has way fewer limits in terms of what we can do with the characters (that we feel comfortable with, depending on our comfort zones, I guess I should say). For example, I can't read major AUs in fandoms such as Criminal Minds. But I'm comfortable with AUs in SGA since alternate universes are practically canon :D
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Date: 2010-05-12 12:01 am (UTC)From:That's interesting as I feel it was kind of the opposite - lots of comfort but the whump was kind of meh. But, then, that's why I feel that SGA has spoiled me. I do think the fandom is whump heavy, but that the whump isn't heavy, if that makes sense. I came across some pretty good H/C fic yet, overall, most of the stories felt like a rehash of the same exact plot, with the only difference being the location of the wound. Even then, you could bet good money, literally, on how a character was going to be injured (with Vin, it was head wounds, always head wounds, and that frustrated me because I prefer chest wounds as an injury ;)).
But, then, I'm a Vin fan, so it could be a Vin fan thing. There was a time I was reading Ezra fic and felt the whumping in those stories a touch more unique than many Vin H/C fic.
And, yes, the Ezra love. So much Ezra love :S I like Ezra, read Ezra fic a time or two a while ago, but came to realize I'm more a Vin fan so I find it frustrating how saturated the fandom is with Ezra fic. I know every fandom has it's popular characters but it amazes me how popular Ezra is.
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Date: 2010-05-12 12:19 am (UTC)From:I prefer whump as a plot device rather than as the plot and lean more toward aftermath than whump itself, but whether it's an aftermath story or includes the whump, I want the injuries and trauma included to be given their due. No glossing over said injuries, no vagueness, no hurrying the healing along (having the character fully healed in 3 weeks when it should take longer). I don't expect the author to really dig in by doing a ton of research (especially if it's not necessary) but neither do I want them to treat the injuries as "the sooner it's over with, the better."
Which is what I love about your stories, that you explore the aftermath without dismissing the injuries or jumping forward to where the characters are one-hundred percent physically. You make the injuries an important part of the story, with the right amount of detail that isn't vague nor heavy-handed.
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Date: 2010-05-12 12:24 am (UTC)From:I am kinda spoiled as the fandoms I read regularly are fairly prolific and extremely well written.
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Date: 2010-05-12 12:30 am (UTC)From:So yeah. Fandoms are different, and I've found that SGA's spoiled me hugely because the quality of writing is usually so high, and there is a relatively large amount of fic that fits my particular reading tastes!
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Date: 2010-05-12 12:59 am (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 2010-05-12 01:19 am (UTC)From:This is finally starting to sink in for me the hard way. I always knew fandoms were different but I never truly realized how different until recently. I pretty much had this mindset that every whumper and H/Cer was pretty much the same - that they would whump the stuffing out of a character to their little hearts content. Basically, that whump is the same anywhere you go.
But, then, I also thought every fandom the same - that is, equal parts everything. The reason for this, I think, is because I became acquainted with both fandom and fanfic during a time when all my favorite shows were fairly young and the fandoms fairly new, before certain pairings and genres had been established. It didn't matter which fandom I tried, I could always find some good H/C. Then I settled on SGA and didn't really give other fandoms a try until years later. It blew my mind when I became acquainted with the Dr. Who fandom yet I had a hard time finding any good tenth Doctor whump. M7 has plenty of whump, but only a small handful of stories pressed any of my buttons.
I'm with Kristen999 on the theory that you are more likely to find a large amount of fic and variety in fandoms that are sci-fi or fantasy in nature. I can't say for sure if that's true, but it feels that way since many of the fandoms I see mentioned (in meta and such) are sci-fi/fantasy (with maybe the exception of Due South, which I see mentioned a lot. Other than that, it's mostly sci-fi shows).
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Date: 2010-05-12 03:00 am (UTC)From:I would like another fandom to go to, as I find that being able to take a break from SGA helps keep it fresh for me, if that makes sense. But, as I said, the fandoms I do visit I don't visit for very long as they don't hold my interest.
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Date: 2010-05-12 03:19 am (UTC)From:Yeah, and as I said, I think that's a pretty recent thing. M7 is an older fandom, and a lot of the fic and archives are not on LJ - there's Blackraptor and Lady Angel's Library, etc. There's a lot of Vin fic in those archives. But here on LJ, it seems like it's all Ezra. It's kinda been been a deterrent to me getting back into the fandom - I read Mag7 fic for years, before I was snagged by SGA. And there's been a few times I've made some half-hearted attempts to go back to it, but for a couple of things. First, as you've said, all the new stuff seems to be Ezra-focused, and my faves were Vin & Chris, preferably as best friends. And second, a lot of my old favorite stories don't hold up so well after being exposed to the quality of writing in SGA fandom. I find myself wincing and thinking - wow, I didn't remember this story being written so badly. :S
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Date: 2010-05-12 04:00 am (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 2010-05-12 04:01 am (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 2010-05-12 04:05 am (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 2010-05-12 04:41 am (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 2010-05-12 04:42 am (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 2010-05-12 04:58 am (UTC)From:All the Ezra focus is getting to be overwhelming. That and kid fic - so much kid fic :S. It makes it hard to write any Vin centric stories since I sometimes rely on other fanfic to help motivate me.
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Date: 2010-05-12 04:58 am (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 2010-05-12 10:03 am (UTC)From:One thing i have found though is that the story quality tends to be very very high in the SG and SGA circles of FF. When I say quality I mean the technical aspects of the story writing. Structure, characterisation, story flow etc...
I have a personal archive of stories that I think are worth keeping to read.. my FF library and a good percentage of it is Stargate.. SG1 and SGA.. the next to follow up is Star Trek (all series) and after that there is NCIS and then various others
I think it is to do mostly with the series in question and what themes the various Ficcers decide to pick up on. And I also think it has to do with the hardcore writers of that area.. a lot of hardcore writers who post regularly in various genre have a prefered style, so their style will be represented everytime they post. If they are majority style then they are overrepresentative. Plus if there is an active writing team writing for each other then you get their prefered genres dominating as they churn out the stuff they grouplike. (in the way all writing cliques generate the stuff they want to read - see "Inklings" as reference)
I have to say though that i think Whump-fic apears to be gaining ground on slash-fic :D
But this is my personal experience of skimming through various fiction sites and stories..I am bound by the constraints of usually going looking for H/c and action stuff so only really noting the other themes and sections available in a fiction site.
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Date: 2010-05-12 12:10 pm (UTC)From:I've read some Supernatural and there is a lot of whump there too. There are comms only for SPN gen fics out there, you have to know where to look. They aren't just as good a SGA or at least I never found that epic to rec yet, but I don't read much. There are
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Date: 2010-05-12 04:09 pm (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 2010-05-12 05:20 pm (UTC)From:That is ((((((exactly))))) what happened when I discovered the LOTR (Aragorn and Legolas directed) site which was intense......
I would read until all hours.......I just could not put it aside.
To think that a search for two names brought me where I am today is amazing as it opened up the door to M7 and SGA ff.
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Date: 2010-05-12 05:21 pm (UTC)From:**NODS**
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Date: 2010-05-12 08:11 pm (UTC)From:That I totally believe. I also believe there's a sort of bandwagon affect; the new and novice writers pick up on what the prolific writers do, because they like what the prolific writers are doing or because the new and novice writers need a template to go by - I recall doing the latter, myself, when I first started writing in SGA. It's what frustrates me about reading fanfic, sometimes. For example, the whole "Sheppard escapes the infirmary" trope. It was cute and funny for a while, but after a while it got tiresome because it was everywhere and how the majority of writers liked to end their stories. Another was "Sheppard is suicidal" which actually ended up offending a lot of people (most especially those in the military).
I think authors have different ideas on how to whump, and definitely have different reasons why they whump. In M7, for example, authors (well, fans of a particular character) really seemed to go for angst more than injury. For them, the details didn't matter, and in some cases no, those details weren't necessary (in other cases, yes, they were). And that's fine. But for a detail junky such as myself, it's frustrating. It's not that the details were a must (not for all fic), it's just that I, personally, wanted the details because that's what I'm used to and that's what I like.
Then, yes, there's the matter of quality. Some authors aren't interested in bettering their writing skills, they just want to write what presses their buttons. Which is also fine because that's pretty much what fanfic is all about. But when all you get is stories more focused on pressing those buttons than writing a well, it's also frustrating. Again, it's not so much a matter of bad writing Vs. good writing but of personal preferences. Though I think, in a way, quality tends to be a given. Some (such as myself) are more picky than others, but the majority of readers aren't going to tolerate a story that isn't "structurally sound" so to speak.
I think I'm starting to ramble now so I'll just stop here :/
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Date: 2010-05-12 08:14 pm (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 2010-05-12 08:24 pm (UTC)From:Very true. To me (and this is just my personal view. And as usual there will be exceptions) to skip straight to where the character is fully healed is like erasing everything that character had gone through. Also, enough time would have passed for the characters to work out their issues, at least a little bit, and being fully healed makes it easier for them to move on. Thus it feels like a quick-fix ending (even if the mental trauma still abounds).
To end the story (or write a story) with the character still healing physically, to me, is a sort of metaphor that things are not all right but they eventually will be. It says that there is no quick fix except time. The injury/ies also act as a reminder of what the character/s went through, and being constantly reminded like that serves as a means to get the characters to at least start to work matters out. So for the character/s to remain injured doesn't feel like a quick fix ending
Again, there are exceptions to this (and I've read those exceptions and loved them because they worked, because it didn't feel like the author was trying to wrap things up in a neat little bow ASAP), but when an author skips straight to complete physical healing, I feel a bit jipped, and the trauma that caused the injuries no longer has carries the same impact. But that's just me ;)
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Date: 2010-05-13 06:44 am (UTC)From:As a writer, I love the challenge of being in the company of good writers, it keeps me from getting lazy and makes me write the best story I can, every time to try to attempt to put out something as good as some of the things I've read. ;)
I've only been involved in 2 other fandoms besides SGA: Emergency! and LOTR. I cut my teeth on writing whump and medical stuff in Emergency! (there are some *dedicated* whumpers in that fandom, at least there were when I was in it...) and I think I got my "Teyla voice" from LOTR. hehehehe... LOTR was a challenge for me and I think pushed me to the next level in my writing with the style and tight form to it.
You can find some exceptional LOTR stories if you know where to look, but lots of others that... well, they don't strike *my* fancy... ;) Emergency! is the same way though many of my favorite sites are gone now :(
So yes, I'm impressed with the volume of good writers and good stories in SGA. They're diverse too. There's lots of strong genres here and it makes for a nice variety to read. :)
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Date: 2010-05-13 07:52 am (UTC)From:That is something i quite agree with. Also Novice and unsure writers will latch onto anyone who will take them under their wing (so to speak) so if they latch onto romance ficcers, then their stories are likely to trend towards romance theme etc..
On the whole it seems that the SGA whumpers are very quick to pick up on areas that people don't like and work towards improving an updating their style to reflect this. People are very open to discuss the techniques and technicality of the story rather than just gush over how "awesome it is that Sheppard/Ronan/Rodney et-al has just been gratuitously mashed into the ground because".. I mean I like accurate whump, I hate it when people use something that I know will severely and permenantly maim a character and would logically put them out of the pictures, and then have that character "return to point A" and be fine and okay for the next adventure (it is seriously what stopped me form watching Start Trek TNG very early on.. this start at A.. go to B return to A with no consequence nore effect on the next episode. I like evolving character and cause and effect - which is why I watched Stargate..) It is just wrong its cartoon mentality and shoul dnot be perpetuated unless you are living in a "cartoon" or "superhero physics" world which they are not..
I don't know if it is because some authors are not interested in improving their style and bettering their skills or if they are just unaware that they are stuck in this "rut" of a style as it were. Having read an awful lot of stuff now I have been coming to the conclusion that a number of authors (cross genre) are not getting quality feedback mainly because the people who do leave "feedback" basically say things like "OMG thats great more!" or "I am going to my bunk!" or stuff like that, and less people are saying.. its got good roots and the idea is sound, but you are being blatant, dial it back a little... I am not sure though if this is because many of the writers have Beta'd their work.. or even considered havign their work beta'd.. also there seem to be a hell of a lot of WIP-brain dump stories, which are find for the first three chapters but then loose their flow, loose th eplot and devolve...
but now i am rambling:D.. seriously i can speculate for weeks on why people write the way they do. So much so that my BF now tunes me out:D..
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Date: 2010-05-13 06:42 pm (UTC)From:Yes! Exactly! Despite a lot of ups and downs in my fandom experience this is why I don't regret getting involved in fandom and why the SGA fandom has become pretty much my one and only fandom. The number and quality of fic pushed me to better my own writing skills, first by getting me to realize that I sorely needed to improve (I'm shamed to admit I was one of those writers who thought their writing was fine and didn't need to be improved). And writing fanfic is excellent means of practice.
And even though the show is over (and things have slowed down a bit) you can still count on finding a gem or two if you wait long enough. And you can always count on those gems being written thanks to ficathons, fic exchanges and so on. Not to say that isn't the case with other fandoms, of course, just that I know the this fandom well enough to know that if I do wait long enough something excellent will come along.
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Date: 2010-05-13 07:08 pm (UTC)From:I don't profess to being some super special awesome writer but I do know that until I started writing for SGA, I was one of those writers stuck in a "rut" as you say. I'd never really considered that my writing needed improvement until I came to SGA. There was a lot of quality fic to read, and it was sort of a slap to the back of my head, coming across so many well-written stories that took whump to another level. I became obsessed with wanting to be "that good" and though there is so much I'm still trying to improve on, I did eventually come to notice a difference. I won't even look at my older works - well, the long ones - because I know I'll just want to clean them up and I'm not ready to do that, yet.
Having read an awful lot of stuff now I have been coming to the conclusion that a number of authors (cross genre) are not getting quality feedback mainly because the people who do leave "feedback" basically say things like "OMG thats great more!" or "I am going to my bunk!" or stuff like that, and less people are saying.. its got good roots and the idea is sound, but you are being blatant, dial it back a little...
Yes, very true. It also doesn't help that quality feedback is a bit of a fine line to walk, especially since everyone has their own ideas about what constitutes helpful critiques (and their own ides of what constitutes quality). I made the mistake of asking people to be honest with me, and though some made excellent points most were more interested in pointing out spelling mistakes and telling me the difference between their, there, and they're.
The worst, however, is when you have someone who leaves helpful feedback, has made excellent points in their feedback, only for the feedback to be nulled by an influx of reviewers saying "don't listen to them, I think you're story is just fine" or "I like that you did "this," so don't listen to that other person" and so on.
I think feedback irritates me more than poorly written stories. "OMG you are like the most awesome writer! Seriously, you need to be published!" no longer has any meaning. I used to be flattered speechless to get reviews like that, up until I saw similar reviews for stories that, well, really don't deserve that kind of a review. And going back to everyone having their own ideas about what is quality and what isn't, there was a time when I was quite open to anything and everything, no matter how it was written, as long as their was whump. There were so many stories that I thought were so wonderfully written, but to go back and read them now they come across as more mediocre. So while some will gush simply because they do want more, others will gush because, to them, the story they are reading is high quality work.
Though I do think most gush simply because they want more. I've been guilty of that myself :P
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Date: 2010-05-14 02:02 am (UTC)From:but I've happily plunked myself down in the SGA fandom and plan on staying. Good stories to read and I still have ones I want to tell too! ;)