kriadydragon | To Say, or Not To Say

This is more a curiosity question than asking for advice.

If a story contains something that bothers you - the way the characters or a character is being portrayed, major plot holes, anything that goes completely against canon, misinformation, etc - do you say something about it? I don't mean pointing out spelling mistakes, nor chewing the author a new one. I mean, "I really like this story for this and this reason and you did a good job with this, however..." Do you ignore the issue and give the story only praise? Or do you not say anything at all? What usually triggers you to speak out on an issue you're having with a story (if there is a trigger. I still have no idea what triggers me to say something)?

I usually ignore issues but on occasion there comes a time when I feel like I need to say something. There's a story I'm currently reading that I'd really been enjoying up until it seemed to do a one-eighty. One minute the story is an angsty "must care for injured comrade" to "Comrade is obnoxious and naughty and must be put in his place." I swear it's like the author decided to up and let someone else write the story, someone who doesn't like the "injured comrade" character. I want to leave a comment but the change in the story's tone really weirded me out, and now the story is not as enjoyable as it was (a lot of the characters are coming off as real jerks, where only chapters ago they were being caring and considerate). I'm debating whether or not to mention it or to just not leave a comment at all. Chances are that I may not leave a comment, not unless things change as I really don't like the direction the story took. Plus it could just be my own personal views tainting the story since the targeted character is my favorite. But it was so strange. The character is being pitied and everyone is walking on eggshells around him, then *blink* and suddenly they're constantly reprimanding him.

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This is something I've often thought over myself. In fact, I've been considering it only recently, in relation to a particular story I read.

Thing is, if the story's just not that great overall, it's very unlikely I'm going to be bothered to try explaining the issues in it to an author unless I'm specifically asked to. But then there are those other situations...

Stories where the writer's very talented, gets the characters, it's great - except that they have no sense at all of story pace, rising and falling action, how to craft a story arc. As a result, things points that should be important drift off into insignificant by-the-way, and in the end the story just stops, abruptly, without any natural sense of things drawing to a conclusion.

Or another case, where the writer again gets the canon characters spot-on, is very talented with a solid style - and then inserts one of the most classic Mary Sues I've ever seen. Who then proceeds to play a major, major part in the story, including having one of the main character fall in love with her. It's awful, a major drawback, and yet the story as a whole is so good that it almost compensates.

So - to say something, or not? Most of the time, I wind up going the lazy or coward's) way: figuring they're only going to be offended, get huffy, retreat behind the positive comments they've had, even though the issues with their writing are genuine just from the perspective of basic good writing, personal preferences aside.

I don't know. The thing is, trying to phrase those criticisms in a constructive way, a way that they can accept gracefully instead of just putting them on the defensive, tends to take time and effort. And it's really hard to judge in advance whether it will be well-spent, or entirely wasted. I'm much more likely to actually say something if I feel I've developed some kind of relationship with the writer - at least had some other interaction with them that gives me a feeling of having earned the right to be heard. Otherwise... I'm more hesitant.

Blah. So difficult to know what to say about some stories, isn't it?

I tend to say nothing--which is probably due to laziness as much as anything. But sometimes it can be just maddening, especially when you're really enjoying a story, and then it takes an abrupt change for the weirder, and characters go all OOC. I just ran across a story (in a fandom with precious little fanfiction) where the author was a decent writer who really seemed to get the characters. Then, out of the blue, she inserts this textbook case Mary Sue, complete with tragic past. Of course, a star character proceeds to (instantly) fall head-over-heels in love with her. *groan* It was just a complete "Whaaa...?" moment. And, yes, it really made me want to ask the author why she did it. >.<

But, in the end, I generally chicken out before I've actually said anything. I suppose you've got have the patience to stop and explain your reaction kindly, especially if you don't want to come across as a troll (which I really don't, even in those hair-tearing moments of disbelief, LOL).

Interesting

I said something once to an author who I felt was promising. It... didn't end well. Another time the writer refused to see where I was coming from. But overall my experience with leaving critiques has been pretty good.

I think that, like you, when I do have an issue with a story it is usually over plot, and usually because the story is well-written and the author shows promise. Most of the time, though, it's what ever I happen to feel the most strongly about. There was this one story that dealt with a serious issue. The main character was put through a terrible trauma, only for the other characters to poke fun at him about it afterwards. The author was trying to make a "statement," but ended up having to add an author's note explaining that they were making a statement because said "statement" was lost to the readers. To me, if you have to actually explain to your readers what you were trying to accomplish with your story, then you've failed at what you were trying to accomplish. I mentioned something along those lines, but the author kept dismissing (politely) what I had to say.

Most of the time I will either provide positive feedback or say nothing at all, but there always comes a story that does something that just hits me in a way that it's hard to keep quiet.

Heh, I usually don't say anything if a story ends up as disappointing ;) Critiques of fanfic can be such a messy, tricky situation that, really, it probably is better to say nothing at all. I know how difficult it can be to receive a critique. I can't stand critiques that point out spelling mistakes, while with other critiques you can never say for sure if you've made a mistake or if the critiquor is simply being opinionated.

Which is why I always feel a bit hypocritical when leaving a critique, especially if there's a chance I'm just being opinionated.

But there are times when I have to say something, and the need to say something is so overwhelming that I can't talk myself out of it (see my above response for an example). The thing about the story I'm currently reading is that I want to leave feedback but neither do I want to praise a story that did something I felt to be rather odd. In fact I'm kind of afraid to continue with this story as I really don't like the way the characters are acting. What the heck happened to all the angst? It was so well written before. Now... I don't know.

If the author requests critiques, I don't have a problem given them honesty. If they're only looking for feedback, I'll comment if I like the story and ignore it if I don't. I find that people who are only looking for comments don't deal well with critiques of any kind, so I avoid given any.

But, the situation you describe would drive me crazy and nag at me to comment. I'd probably mention how much I was enjoying the story, but how confused I was at the unexpected change to the characters, story line, or what ever. I'm not sure if "I'd" add in how much I hatted the change. That's a really hard one to second guess.

Good luck however you chose to handle it.

I probably won't say anything. Right now I'm waiting to see how the story plays out. It's not often I feel the need to critique, and mostly I either say something positive or don't say anything at all.

What happened in the above mentioned story was so weird. It's like they completely forgot the character went through a trauma - is still going through a trauma, in a way. I don't know. I'm wondering if the author isn't good at handling emotions in a story. Except they seemed to be handling it just fine during the first couple of chapters. *Shrugs*. Very odd.

In my experience, to say is always a hughe risk.
I mean, as a general rule I only critic fics I see potencial in. And I would never critic things like pairing or similiar (I simply stop reading).
The reactions vary. Some never answer. Some simply disagree (which is totally okay by me - plot issues are often a matter of point of view). A few of them asked me to preread their next chapters. It's the handful of really bad reactions which put me off reviewing for a while.

I.e there was an author who created some sort of hirachic society with seven high families and a couple of lesser families in power. I had three points of critic: One character was supposed to be the daughter of one of the high families but was portrayed as a social climper (I still ask myself why she should be if she already has the highest position possible). The high families supposedly only married in their own class (talk about inbreeding). And there were undertones of femmeslash (between 11 years old!) to boot, the writer did not warn about beforehand (my point was the lack of warning...I really hate it when things like that are sprung at me). The answer I got was basically "learn to spell!" Needless to say that I didn't bother with the story after that.

As a writer, I highly appreciate critic like that, but I rarely get it. I mean, even a "I especially liked your characterization" is more helpful than a simple "well done". But it's just as difficult to write a good review than to write a good ff, so I don't complain.

I noticed that most people write their critic like that: Good story, but.... I myself fall into this trap very often, although I know it's actually better to do it the other way around. For a writer, it's always easier to deal with the critic if a review ends on a positive note as the other way around (because then the bad things a negating everything good said beforehand).

I mean, as a general rule I only critic fics I see potencial in.

Yeah. Most of the stories I seem to critique are those with potential, such as the story I mentioned in my post. Most of the time, though, it comes down to whether or not I feel strongly about saying something. As I mentioned in one reply, there was a story I read in which a character who was put through a major trauma is later made fun of for that trauma. The author had to explain, in an author's note, that they were just trying to make a statement. Seeing as how the point had failed to be made in the story itself, and required the authors note to point it out, I said something.

A good critique is one that points out the positive and the issues. I'm part of a writing group, and the critiques I received were not only helpful but made me feel positive about my story despite its issues. We usually start off by pointing out the positive, then ease into the negative (sort of softening the blow, I suppose you could say). We never say "But this is what is wrong with your story." It's more along the lines of "*This* *this* and *this* were awesome and I loved what you did with *this,* but I was a little thrown by *this.*" Then, as you say, we end on a positive note - *But, despite that, the story was really great."

Which you would think is easy enough to do, but we had to do some research to learn how to write a proper critique. So, yeah, personally I'd rather get an all positive review or no review at all rather than a critique that's all nit-picking. And I only provide critiques if, as I said, I feel strongly that I need to say something. Which, really, isn't all that often (probably once or twice a year, in fact)

In this specific case, why not simply tell the author that the turn surprised you very much and you wonder what made the author do it. Not criticizing it or saying she did wrong here, but simply asking her about the (thinking)process behind it - it may spur an interesting conversation and I assume most authors would like to talk about their motivation why they took a story in a certain direction.

Apparently you can pinpoint the moment/scene on which the story took this turn so it should be easy enough to display your interest and ask what caused the author to change the tone of the story at this point. :-)

This way the author knows that you noticed the change in the tone and if it was intentional, she might like the opportunity to talk to you about why she did it. If she did it somewhat unintentionally (for lack of a better word) or didn't notice that the turn was somewhat sudden for a reader, out of the blue, then this will let her know that this is the case.

Just an idea, of course.

I just ditch the story and move on. Mind you I do that with books too.

It's not that easy...I mean, one critic I sometimes get is "the ending was rushed". But I had never someone tell me why he thought it was rushed or how to make it better. (That I get at the same time reviews from people complementic me on the ending doesn't make it easier...if I get the same kind of critic for different stories in different, there has to be something on it, right? It may be only a matter of taste, but nevertheless I would like to get more that "it was rushed"...and I can never ask, because those are always come from anonymus reviewer.).

I think, making suggestions how to make it better or explaining why something doesn't work out is just as important as writing something positive. And that can be difficult, even if you are a writer yourself.

To be honest, I think it depends on the author. If it's someone I know well, who would appreciate some concrit, I would PM them and ask. But for an unknown author, I would simply move on without leaving any comments.

Interesting question. ;)

Personally, I no longer say anything if I read something I don't agree with or think isn't right (or even is a clear contradiction to canon or real life such as medical facts). Unfortunately, I've had way to many bad experiences in multiple fandoms, that I just stop reading and go on. Too many encounters with people that, no matter how courteously or politely you point things out, they umm.... don't take it well. Too many times it ended up being a gigantic headache for me and a couple times I ended up being flamed by other people who thought I was some sort of ogre. ;)

Now, if someone comes to me and asks me for my honest opinion, then I will offer it, both good points and points that I think need a little work. I will say in the SGA fandom, I've found more people willing to accept honest critique, ask for feedback and take that feedback in the spirit its intended, than in the other fandoms I've participated in, but I still shy away from saying anything if its not solicited and especially if I don't know the author.

I know how difficult it can be to receive a critique.

Another excellent point--and probably another huge contributing fact to why I feel uncomfortable critiquing people. Also, when it comes to fanfiction I feel kind of as if leaving negative feedback is just looking a gift horse in the mouth. I understand exactly how time-consuming it can be to write a really long, complicated, novel length fic--and your only pay when your through is the satisfaction and experience of having written it, and the reviews others leave. I had a very opinionated reviewer a while back who just about killed my muse with her overbearing advice (I like to be thorough, but I just am NOT going to go so far as to read books on horse psychology! Nope.), so the last thing I want to do is go in and tell some poor author to change things around just to suit me.

But, then, there are those stories where you're pretty sure you're not the only one reading and feeling opinionated about them. :P (And, man, nothing is quite so disappointing as a story that has all the appearances of good angst and hurt/comfort to come...and then just never delivers. And when they abruptly semi-villainize a character you love? MEH.)

Edited Date: 2011-02-08 03:46 pm (UTC)

Why not just ask what happened to the story line...........e..g "just wondering why it seems to have done a U turn or taken a radical left turn from earlier direction".......???
I see nothing wrong with asking........
If that does not suit you, then send a PM as I have in past
not just for this type of thing but when I did not want everyone to see my comment for some reason..........

Would just like to add my $.02 as an author.

I have, on occassion, gotten feedback that has left me less than pleased. Not so much that it was negative, but that the commenter felt fully justified in asking me to rewrite my story to better suit her expectations.

In one case, the commenter used my story - which centered around a difficult moment in a slash relationship - as a platform to complain that there should be more case!fic or mystery stories (but she loved my story anyway) and then segued into a complaint that all fic for this particular fandom seems to be an excuse to pair these two characters in a sexual relationship. This statement was made despite the clear and explicit warnings in the header.

In another case, the commenter felt the need to criticise the linguistic tools used - wanting to see "more tell than show" despite the fact that the fic was clearly meant as an interior tone piece - with or no plot/movement.

My point in relaying this is that when offering what may be intended as construction, the commentor should consider what the authorial intention is. Telling a writer that you'd rather read something completely different isn't constructive critism. An excellent meta on what is constructive critism can be found here.

I sort of go back and forth on this. I used to be more willing to give crit or post a mixed review of the "I really liked these things, but such-and-such could use some work" variety. These days, though ... I've gotten enough bad reactions that I don't do it unless I know the person pretty well, and know they'd be receptive to critique. And it truly isn't that I'm stopping because I don't like being yelled at (though obviously, no one likes that), but that I really don't want to upset people, and a lot of people aren't in fandom to be critiqued. Which I do totally understand -- better, I think, than when I first came into fandom. I don't want to be that person walking around at the knitting craft show going "Hey, you've got a dropped stitch here, and your color choices could use some work" when it's all meant to be free and for fun. *g*

... though I do totally get you on the frustration of a story that starts out promising and has major flaws (or just major points of disagreement between you and the author) later on. Like I said, I used to be more crit-happy, but these days I just don't review if I don't think I could give them a squeeful and positive review. I read one yesterday (in Sanctuary fandom) that I liked up until the end, where the author sprung sudden!surprise!pairing on me -- it's a non-canon het pairing, and I don't think I'd have minded it if the author had mentioned it in her headers, but as it was ... meh. I just didn't review. I've stopped reading this author's SGA fic because she tends to throw in her favorite pairing without noting it in the headers, so I guess I shouldn't have been too shocked, but I suppose I really wasn't in the mood for it and didn't appreciate the surprise. :/

Hmmmmm... I shall ponder this.

I'll admit to a bit of cowardice, though, which is also why I may not say anything (had a bad experience with another bit of concrit a while back, so I'm now extra wary). But I really am curious about the sudden change of tone. It's also as though the writer felt the story wasn't funny enough, so pushed a little too much humor into the mix.

And you can totally pin point the change. And I mean right down to the scene and sentence. It was like opening a door to a whole new building rather than another room.

Except I want to know what happens. I was really into the story up until the point of change. And I tend to be one of those people that once I start something I have to finish it. But I cringe to think how the ending will be handled unless the author allows the story to get back into the angst.

That's probably what I'll end up doing - not saying anything at all. That's my usual course of action, anyway, unless something bugs me so bad I can't ignore it.

I had a bit of a bad experience with some concrit a while back. Completely my fault as I knew what I was getting into... long story. Anyway, it's made me extra wary about saying anything. There's also a chance that my character preference may be tainting my views. (Though one thing I know for sure was that there was a definite change in the tone of the story. It went from heavy angst to humor, and the change is pretty obvious. You can even pijn point exactly when the change occurs).

Chances are I won't say anything, especially if the story continues on the same path. Should it switch back to angst and become enjoyable enough that I want to leave feedback, I may drop a line then - make casual mention of it or ask about it. We shall see, we shall see. But I'm leaning more and more toward not potentially poking a hornets nest. Last time I said something to someone about their story, it didn't go well and became a lot of pointless stress for me (I was have terrified this person was going to follow my stories around just to flame me or something).

I had someone kind of berate me because I didn't whump her favorite character the way she liked :/ She said I was leaving him too much out of the picture or something. I couldn't say for sure if she had a point and that's what really irked me. I hate concrit where I can't tell if the commentor has a point or if they're just being opinionated. They go on and on about what didn't work for them, then end with "but it was a good story."

When I do happen to concrit, I always feel guilty about it because I know how frustrating it can be. I never say anything unless I feel strongly about it, and try to word it in a way so that the author doesn't feel like I'm telling them what's wrong with their story. And I always make sure to list what did work.

Now that I think about it, when I do concrit, it's because I did like the story except for some part or plot point that really niggled me. It's not so much that I'm offering a critique as being honest. I'm don't like giving a story nothing but praise if there was a part or plot point that really made me cringe. But neither do I not want to say anything if the rest of the story was excellent.

I've found that when someone comments with paragraph after paragraph of criticism - all of which revolves around why I plotted a story the way I did, and I should have done this, should not have written that, I find it easier to just say something along the lines of "you may want to consider writing the story as you would like it read" and leave it at that.

I have frequently taken the time to PM an author to let he know about a typo or a canon error - simply because I, myself would prefer to be contacted that way - rather than have the pointed out errors in the comment stream. Most times, I get a thank you and the error gets corrected. Sometimes this gives me an opportunity to engage in dialogue with the author, and sometimes I get flamed in return.

If I just don't like the story, I don't comment. If there are too many problems, nothing I say will improve it.

I just came to the realization that when I do leave concrit, it's not so much because I'm critiquing the story, but because I feel the need to be honest. If I liked the story, but there was a part or plot point that really bothered me, I can't really bring myself to leave nothing but praise. I did that once with a story that handled a situation in a way that I didn't agree with. I gave it nothing but praise, even though I really didn't like the way the situation was handled. It bothered me for some time afterward as it felt like I was giving support to something that I didn't want to support.

But neither do I not want to say anything if the story was good. It's always the conundrum when I encounter such situations. Usually if there's something in a story that bothers me, if I'm unable to ignore it, then I just don't comment (but as you no, I don't have much tolerance for surprise pairings, myself, and will say someone if someone drops a pairing without warning ;))

I just came to the realization that when I do leave concrit, it's not so much because I'm critiquing the story, but because I feel the need to be honest.

*nods* Yeah, that sounds pretty accurate for me too. And, as a writer, I do think that honest reader reactions are important -- if a lot of readers are confused about a plot twist, for example, maybe I've done something wrong. But I've also had experiences where a lot of readers posted unhappy or nasty comments because I was writing a character they don't like (I used to get this when I'd write Keller ... not so much anymore), and it's not helpful; it just tells you that readers don't like the character, which makes me wonder why they'd be reading it in the first place. So that's one of the reasons why I've backed off on leaving those sorts of comments -- it really is more about me than about the writer, and I've been feeling less and less comfortable getting my Thoughts on Canon all over their story. *g*

I totally agree...I love it when readers share with me what they think of my characters, especially if their view is not what I intended to do. Even a critic I don't agree with can be very helpful, simply because it gives me reason to rethink certain points...sometimes I discover something totally unrelated to what a reviewer wrote. But to many people don't understand the different between "the character is hateable" and "the character is badly written". Because a good villain has to be hateable.

(You write Keller? *hurrying off to take a look*)

okay, I have searched...where did you hide your Keller-stories?

Most of my longer ones lately have featured her in a large role - usually with Rodney and/or John in large roles also. :)

Night Ops - Jennifer and Rodney have to rescue an injured John from a military compound on a frozen world.

Devil and the Deep Blue Sea - John, Rodney and Jennifer take a routine trip to investigate an undersea lab on Atlantis's planet, but of course it's not that easy.

The Hunters - Keller and Teyla have to find Rodney in an enemy-infested labyrinth.

(Heh. My stories are sounding more and more like video game missions. *g*)

She also appears in some of my shorter stories on my website.

Oh, okay, I get it...I thought about Mathew Keller and was looking for White Collar stories (I'm not a SGA-Fan).....

Nope, once the story loses me, it totally loses me and it's abandoned there and then. :)

urk. that's a hard one, especially when you're really invested, as a reader, in the story. I know in your spot I'd want to say something too and its hard to decide whether or not to do so. *hugs*

for me, even if I have to really bite my tongue, I just move on unless asked specifically by the author.

Hope it works out for you whatever you decide :)

Haha, oops! Colliding fandoms ahoy! (I don't watch White Collar, so I had no idea there was a character named Keller ...)

Oh, you should...Great actors, great dialogues...

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kriadydragon

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