kriadydragon | ???????? Yep, Another Inquiry

A small discussion coupled with a comment I read some time ago on Gateworld has finally provoked me into asking a question I've been wanting to ask for a while. For the record, this is merely an inquiry and should it escalate into a controversy causing unnecessary hostility then I will delete it. People have a right to their opinions and do not need to be bashed for it.

Is it just me (and possibly several other Sheppard fans) but does Sheppard get character bashed quite a lot? Or at least a lot more than McKay?

Now, being a Sheppard fan, rather protective of the characters I like, and with the broad spectrum of how a character can be veiwed, it might just be my personal opinion. Still, I've never really come across stories that dis McKay as badly as some stories have dissed Sheppard. Yes, I'm not a big McKay fan, but I would still never put his character down as badly as I've seen some writers put Sheppard down. Or maybe they don't realize they're doing it and it's simply the way they view Sheppard? I don't know. It's just that some stories come across, to me, as a slight toward Sheppard's character. Sometimes even as a way to put McKay's character on a pedestal.

As for the comment on Gateworld, it was extremely spiteful not only toward Sheppard but Sheppard fans as well. I was so ticked I couldn't even think of a response. After that, I refused to venture beyond my regular threads. I hang out mostly in the Sheppard whump and Thunk thread and I have yet to ever see anything said about McKay as mean as that one comment about Sheppard had been. And, from what I hear, there have been many of such Sheppard-bashing comments made leading to controversy that has driven many from the forum.

That's not to say Rodney bashing comments have not been made or Rodney-bashing stories don't exist. Story-wise, I've yet to come across any and I would assume that it would be Shep-whumpers doing the bashing. The authors I read, all mostly Shep whumpers, handle Rodney like Rodney rather than altering his character just to get a desired result.

What really has me curious is - if this is true and not just me - why all the dislike toward poor Shep?

I do know there are a lot more McKay fans than Sheppard fans. I also know that the majority of McKay-whump writers handle Sheppard 's character with respect.

But no matter who is bashed more, I find character-bashing in general rather immature. If you're not a big fan of a character, there's no need to write a story just to put that character down. I find it unfair to the fans of that character, as well as hypocritical if you're of the type who doesn't like to have their character bashed.

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Firstly, great post! *applauds*

At the risk of aiding said escalation of controversy, I do feel that there is an inordinate amount of Shep bashing out there in the general fandom. I do concede, however, that I may be similarly prejudiced, for the same reasons as you. I don't think it is a simple case of our favouring Shep, though. There simply is not such a large amount of derisive comments and fiction out there aimed at other characters (although I'm sure there is certainly some).

As to why, I'm at a loss. I think some of it may have been triggered by some of the more two dimensional writing for Shep's character in some areas of the early seasons. If one didn't choose to look for the greater depth, it left Shep's character as somewhat shallow. I don't think this was the case personally, but as a Shep fan I was willing to look harder for the extra effort that JF put in to the role, and to take what depth was there and extend and extrapolate it in my own little corner of the fandom.

I also think that there are many people out there who are adverse to the hero, and dislike characters that come across as too confident, or cocky, or appear to have the slightest odour of a saviour complex. If I can go one step further, with some it is the military aspects of the character that are disagreable, rather than the character himself - although personally I think you'd be hard challenged to find a less military military character than Sheppy.

Finally, I think some people, myself included, just have pet peeves. Kirking, Shep's hair, etc. (I don't have those particular pet peeves, of course! Hail to Teh Hair!)

For the sake of a balanced arguement, though, I have to say that other characters have their problems in the fanbase, and fanfiction in particular. Ronon and Teyla are often ignored, or at least play minor roles in a fic, because their characters are both less developed and more alien to many cultural viewpoints. I know I'm guilty of that. Rodney has the misfortune to be frequently mischaracterised as a rude and ignorant boor, when his character is much more complex and intriguing. And I have to confess that I stop reading the moment it becomes apparent that Teyla is the mother hen and Ronon the enforcer, with Shep and Rodney as the wayward, bickering children. Aye don thing ya canna say mooch morre aboot arther characterisations, ken ye? So while I think that Shep certainly has some more malicious characterisations, I don't think he is solely afflicted, either. I also think we notice the more offensive Shep characterisations and general mean spirited comments because he's our fave. Other people could bash Ronon (purely as an example) in other threads or Ronon-centric fics, and frankly, I'd be either less irritated by it or else blissfully unaware of it's existence.

Oh yes. Shep totally gets bashed more than McKay. I've seen hateful things from DH/McKay fans in the past. Hateful towards Shep and even Joe, for no reason other than jealousy. They can't accept that Shep/Joe is a cool character/person and people like them. Heaven forbid you praise Joe's acting. I've seen Joe shot down as a horrible actor and so on. When, to me, Joe is the better actor. He's a different style actor from DH as well. But DH is 2 dimensional to me and Joe isn't. Some Weir fans have severely dissed Shep and Joe as well. Taking things way too far. And the nasty things written in fics where Shep is horrible and mean to poor widdle Wodney is atrocious. I used to like McKay when SGA started and it was actually his fans that made me dislike him and, at times, loathe him. And as you say, writing a character like that is totally hypocritical, because whenever I, or other Shep fans, tried to defend Shep, we were dissed as well. Yet the Mckay fans were like, HOW DARE YOU DIS RODNEY!

Also, I don't believe there are more McKay fans than Shep fans. We're just less vocal. McKay fans tend to be louder, and I've often read posts where Shep fans admit to not wanting to say they're Shep fans beacuse they don't want to be hit by the wrath of McKay fans. There were some really nasty times on GW and on LJ because of that. Really nasty. And so unneccessary. I really hate McKay most of the time, but that's as far as I go. I'll admit it proudly, but anything further is said privately to friends. As it should be.

Hmmm, interesting observation. I might be a little off topic here, so forgive me if I am. Personally, I haven't read enough fanfics to note much instances of Shep bashing and I've er...never ventured into fan forums much to read their comments. If I read something I don't like, I abandon it almost immediately before I reach any bashing bits. But I guess what you've read must have been pretty nasty to get the reaction you got. However, I'm a little uncertain by your definition of 'bashing' as my interpretation might differ from yours. While my favourite character is Shep, I do *enjoy* reading stories that have McKay and Shep banter and snarkiness (including the insults that guys like to throw to each other as long as they remain in-character) and when the boys sometimes act like dorks (because give me a dork anytime over an arrogant & ego-centric individual). In fact, I find their dorkiness kinda cute and it would sit well in a fic that is comical, but I'm not sure if you consider it as 'bashing' say if McKay insulted Shep by calling him 'an idiot' even though we all *know* that he is anything but one!

I've come across a story or two where McKay is represented as a rude and arrogant individual who always whines about everything – represented more like a clown rather the complex individual that he is - but I think the individual writing it is usually young and immature and don't know any better. The same applies to Sheppard, I think I recall once coming across a fic where Shep was being really mean to Rodney which I found extremely OOC and I stopped reading. But at the same time, I think the writer was fairly young, so perhaps it's something to do with wisdom with age? One thing that I do like about SGA is that both of these men are extremely complex, they may act like dorks sometimes but they are intelligent and caring individuals (maybe a little socially dysfunction) but their imperfections make them more human and endearing. I think it's a shame that anyone has to resort to character bashing and I agree with you about it showing the maturity of the individual involved. Sometimes not replying is the right thing to do and silence is golden esp when you can't reason with the person. Sorry if I went off track, and if it's not really the reply you're looking for, but I found it disturbing to know that there was such things going on out there in cyberworld and from the sounds of it, I'm glad that I haven't come across them. *Goes back into cave*

I usually try to participate in your queries, but I find the whole concept of character bashing baffling. Liking one character especially doesn't, in my mind, exclude also liking the rest of the characters. The show is an ensemble. It works (entertains us) because that ensemble of characters works well together.

I adore Sheppard. I also like Rodney and Ronon and Zelenka. I don't care for Carson, but I can see the value in his character, as well as Caldwell's. Keller isn't Carson, but that doesn't mean she's bad, nor her fault Carson's gone or Jewel's fault that Paul's gone. Sam isn't Elizabeth, but it's not Sam's fault Liz is gone, nor Amanda's fault that Torri's gone.
It's not DH's fault that he got more screentime in a epi than JF, nor JF's fault that John's the hero.

Yes, I revel when an episode is John-centric, 'specially if he's getting whumped, but that doesn't make Duet or Grace Under Pressure or Tao of Rodney any less entertaining.

*shrug* Like I said, it baffles me...

I have seen the Shep bashing you speak of fairly recently on GW. I don't see it often in fanfic because I typically only read authors/stories that have been rec'd by people I trust.

One explanation I received for the Shep bashing was that he was a poorly characterized copy of O'Neill. What? The poster went on to talk about kirking and bad jokes.

I think in some ways people form opinions based on comments made by others and then never pay attention to any growth/changes the character experiences. If your first notion of Sheppard is based off his actions (and McKay's indignation) in Sanctuary, do you give him another chance or just decide you don't like him and gloss over most of what he says/does in later eps? If all the people on the threads/forums you frequent dislike him, do you look at him objectively or through their eyes?

I know I see him differently after spending time on the whump thread. The Shep fans there have pointed out so many things that I never noticed.

I also think he's an easy target. He's a handsome decision maker with a smart mouth and usually a focal point in eps. He hasn't had much development so for some he is simply the stoic action hero who picks on Rodney.

I saw that exact post, and I appreciated you replying.

I don't know about fanfic. I read a lot of John & Rodney friendship fic, such as friendshipper's stuff, and the characterization is usually pretty even.

Where Gateworld goes.... I don't know. Gateworld is a pretty diverse place, which is good, because I've been able to have good conversations and make some good friends from several different fandom groups. But on the other hand....

I have personally seen Rodney bashing. There's been threads like "Why doesn't a Wraith eat Rodney?" etc etc. Probably the Shep bashing is more prevalent though, possibly because there's more Rodney fans out and about on the boards, while the Shep fans tend to congregate in their threads. Please don't take that as a criticism - it's sincerely not meant as one. There's nothing wrong with staying in certain threads. It's just something I've observed. When characters like Rodney or Sam are criticised, their fans rush to their defense, but most of the time the Shep criticism goes relatively unchallenged, and I've been confused, because I know there's huge numbers of Shep fans at GW. But I've decided it must be because either the Shep fans don't see it, or they feel like it's not worth getting in an argument about. Maybe Shep fans are just more easygoing than fans of other characters. :D

Umm. I do think there is a large contingent on GW, however, for whom Atlantis and all its characters will only ever be a poor imitation of SG-1, and Shep, as the lead of this poor imitation, becomes the target of more of the bashing.

There's also a few who are still quite bitter that Sam/AT didn't get the lead a couple of years ago on SG-1, and they tend to attack both Shep and Mitchell as "stereotypical male lead"s, or "O'Neill imitations." I've seen a few comments about how they hope that Shep will straighten up and act like a "real" officer now that Sam's in charge. *shrugs* I'm by no means saying that the majority of Sam fans feel that way-it's just from a certain segment.

I haven't seen a lot of bashing of Shep from Rodney fans though. There's a couple of particular exceptions I can think of, but mostly no. At least on Gateworld. Can't speak for other places.

I don't go on the GW boards simply because it's pointless bickering. Same arguments over and over. It's sad really.

It's funny how the lines between characters and actors gets blurred. These are people going to work in a visible job and people think they have the right to criticize and insult.

People complain about Shep not having any depth when I think JF has brought a lot to table. Subtle looks. The way he delivers his lines. The way Shep says very little until he really needs to (OK that's probably in the script). Who really gives a flying leap about Kirking, not Kirking and whatever. He's a grown man, give the brother a break.

I love on the DVD for Rising in particular where JF and Martin Wood are discussing how they set up scenes. What went into it. That kind of stuff shows you it's a job and he knows his stuff. DH even asked a directing question on one of them...job people, paycheck. We have the added benefit of getting to watch them have fun and work.

I'm not a Carson or Weir fan. But I liked the dynamic they have brought. I like how this cast gel'd. I like this marvelous show. But change isn't always bad. It's TV...it's just not that important in the grand scheme but some people find they need to bring the anger in their own lives into fandom. They feel bigger by bashing. It's called bullying.

And, from what I hear, there have been many of such Sheppard-bashing comments made leading to controversy that has driven many from the forum.

Just rereading your post - this caught my eye.

You know, that's entirely possible. I didn't know that, but....

I do know that there's quite a level of bitterness toward characters like Cam and Vala. It's still hard to have any kind of an open discussion regarding those two characters without it turning into an allout argument and the fans of those characters eventually giving up and retreating. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if most fans of those two had either left GW or retreated to specific threads. So, given that I've already observed that some of that has been extended to Shep....it wouldn't really surprise me. I just personally don't think it's coming from Atlantis or Rodney fans, at least most of it. I will be keeping my eyes open in the future to see if I'm wrong about that. But right now that's my personal perspective.

Sadly enough, it's true. I see a lot of it especially in some slash fics. Rodney is usually the knowledgeable dominant one, and John is the the stupid grunt. I've been really, really choosy when it comes to that anyway. (If you kinda like slash,

likethekoschka's Geek's and Goon's Guide series must be read.)

Sometimes, it's just horrible, and I don't know if it's someone who doesn't watch the show regularly, or they are just youngsters who are picked on by the jocks.

OOC stuff really bugs me! Unless there's a method to the writer's madness, or I'm warned ahead of time, I will stop reading. The one thing I find curious is that it almost seems personal. I so don't go on those forums anymore because there's just bitching.

Sheppard is an understated character, and honestly I think it's great! When little things pop up in canon, I feel like it's a present, and it makes me love his character more. Besides that, it makes my imagination run wild. He is incredibly smart, and when he comes up with these crazy solutions, it's always in a quiet way.

Yes, Rodney would do it largely and loudly, but Rodney is always thinking out loud. Sheppard is definitely a character that needs a tiny bit more refining, but I like him just as he is: adorkable, a little deep, and a lot mysterious. He's like a gneech. (And if you've read Alan Dean Foster's Spellsinger series you'd know.) JIC... A gneech is something that moves out of the corner of your eye and disappears before you can glimpse it.

I've loved Joe in so many of his guest appearances, and am so glad to see him regularly. And he gives his characters a three-dimensional effect that most don't give you. He gives you someone you can relate to, and wouldn't be afraid to approach. Well, I would, because I'm terrified of hot people! LOL

David is an interesting person, and is a gneech is his own way. Listening to the commentaries, I'm glad that he toned down the character, and you saw a bit more of McKay's vulnerability. And after speaking to him, I think I adore him all the more.

All right, I've rambled enough...

OMG is there a lot against Vala and Cam! People are downright mean! Cam is not John Crighton, and Vala is not Aeryn Sun, people! Seriously. If you want to write SG-1, and don't like those characters, please...for the love of all fandoms... DO NOT WRITE THEM!

New characters do not mean replacement, and I think the prejudice should stop. Really.

Whew! There. I said it.

I think some of it may have been triggered by some of the more two dimensional writing for Shep's character in some areas of the early seasons. If one didn't choose to look for the greater depth, it left Shep's character as somewhat shallow.

Yes, that's my suspicion as well. Sheppard as the typical hero and people getting annoyed by that. And if JF wasn't such an excellent actor, making Sheppard 3-dimensional, then that might have been the case.

I think he's more a neglected character, with the writers more focused on McKay. Sheppard has so much potential to be great if the writers would just give him deeper stories beyond action, mouthiness, and flirting.

I used to like McKay when SGA started and it was actually his fans that made me dislike him and, at times, loathe him

Oh my word, so freakin' true. I've managed to harbor respect for Rodney but there comes times where I can't stand him. I get so frustrated with his character, especially in fanfic as I always feel he gets away with being a bit of a jerk too much. But when it's Sheppard being made a jerk just so the reader will feel sorry for Rodney, that ticks me off to no end.

For the reasons you mentioned, that's also part of the reason I hate romance, as Sheppard's always made the creep who broke poor Weir's heart.

And I guess I say there's more McKay fans bacuase I'm thinking in terms of fanfic writers. I didn't really take into account those who don't write fic. It's just that it seems or at least feels like there are a lot more McKay-centered fic than Sheppard-centered fic, but that could just be me being warped by a need for more Sheppard stories.

I never read Rodney centered fanfic because he's something hateful to me there. I do enjoy him in good Shep fic, or even Shep and Rodney fics, when done by a good author. But about a year ago, it was Rodney fans that nearly sent me out of this fandom because I was sick of the way Shep was being dissed and portrayed in fic. At one point I took a Rodney fan's comments about Shep/Joe and turned them around onto Rodney/DH and that person flipped. And I said, huh...Those were your exact words. Not nice to hear about your fave, eh?

Yes, the romance I hate. And when Weir fans started Saying Joe probably cheats on his wife and stuff, simply because Joe wasn't promoting Shep/Weir, they had crossed a line. ::Shakes head::

I don't care who people like, just don't diss my fave and I won't dis yours. How hard is that? :D

Wow, you defined their characters very well. Dorky but deep - that's our boys.

And believe me when I say that you'll know a character bashing fic when you run into one. The snark and general goofiness of both men is who they are, that's not character bashing. Character bashing is when Sheppard snubs Rodney by not listening to him, then makes Rodney feel like scum, which Sheppard would never do. Granted, many of such fics are usually handled by less mature writers, but there have been some experienced writers who do this very thing but in a much more subtle way.

Any story where the character is made OOC, scum, a jerk, stupid or at least air-headed - basically everything or anything the character isn't - can be called character bashing; or just really crapping writing. And though I haven't read any of such stories myself, I have heard of stories written strictly for the purpose of putting a character down. There are fic sites - such as Wraithbait - that have strict rules against character bashing fics so they do exist.

So it may be that you'll never come across such stories, and all the better. I just get bothered by the concept of character bashing as it's not fair to the fans of the character being bashed.

It baffles me, too. That's why I posted this. People really do get very, very nasty toward particular characters and it gets ridiculous. And I don't get it. IF you don't like a character, you ingore them, not try to tick off the fans of that character (which a lot of people like to do, it seems).

Amen to all of it. I think had the Shep whump or thunk thread did character bashing against McKay then I'd probably hate McKay. I'm not a big McKay fan and find him rather annoying, but he is an interesting character who I like to write on occasion as well as watch on the show (until he starts eating up the hours with long dialogue. I've never been one for a lot of talking). There are many fanfics that tend to get me annoyed with him for a time, but that doesn't mean I hate him.

I also think what you said true about all the characters. A lot of people find Ronon flat and nothing more than a glorified body guard. But I find him amusing, especially when he's around McKay.

The problem with opinions, however, is that once they're made it's hard to talk a person out of them. I've tried to do that with other shows, get people to see why I liked a particular character.

I think TV shows a good source to practice open-mindeness on.

When I talk about McKay fans doing Shep bashing I mean in fics and usually in small ways (like stories where the writer wants us to feel sorry for Rodney). And it's not necessarily that they hate Sheppard, just that he's the prime canditate for having someone be mean to Rodney. So, sometimes, it's not so much about hating a character but wanting their favorite character to shine more.

But there are some stories I've come across that always leave me wondering the writer's real intent.

As for people leaving the threads, many have done so not just because of controversy but because of people harassing them long after the argument was over, even following back to their specific threads to keep haraguing them.

Well said. And I like Vala and Cam, they're fun.

Oh, snaps. Nicely said. I've been getting a little annoyed by all the "Changes, ew! I'm no longer watching the show" attitude, how people are angry one minute then excited the next. Threatening to snub the show then getting all happy once spoilers start coming out.

It's just a freakin' show. I've yet to ever have a show I ended up hating. I take a show for what it is, not what I want it to be. And if there's occasional whumping involved that simply makes it all the better.But I won't stop watching a show just because there isn't.

Heh. Must be honest. I'm one of those people. I'm so upset about HOUSE MD, my other show with my other fave, that I want the show to TANK TANK TANK! Yeah...it is just a show, and I know that. But I was so excited at the end of last year and now it's just killed the excitment and ruined everything for me. So..yeah. ::Sigh::

Stupid finger. It posted before I was done.

All I was going to add was that, I'm very passionate about things I love. If you can't tell. LOL

Ah, loverly put. I agree with you - the bits and peices revealed about Shep is a more interesting and even enjoyable way to reveal him to us. I'm just tired of everyone else getting good back-story stuff and not him. Not just because I love his character but because a good character needs a good back story to help them develope.

A friend and fellow writer told me that when she developes a character, she goes all out. Establishes how he was born, where, who his parents are, even likes and dislikes. Some she might use, some she might not, but is able to determine how that character will react to certain situations a lot quicker.

In fanfiction, we have the characters developed or pretty much developed right in front of us. So there's no reason to be screwing up their character just for a desired affect or simply because you don't like them. If it can't work without the characterization being massively altered (unless that's what the fic is about, a character being altered) then don't write it.

Then it must have screwed up big time. The show, I mean, not your finger.

I'm passionate but I'm not picky. There were shows I've gotten into that were either not that great or just plain sucked, but I would watch them anyways out of boredom. When cancelled I didn't really care. There are also shows I've gotten bored with (Like Prison Break although the new season looks promising. And Lost but it started picking up) Yet would still stick with it although not in a direct way (watch some epsisodes but not all.)

I think if you are passionate about a show, then a show has to really mess up for you to hate it. I've had shows almost do that to me, but I went the route of "That episode didn't exist" to keep the show from being ruined for me.

Right on.

I tend to watch a show for one character. I like Heroes, and can watch it in Gen, although I'm still mostly interested in Mohinder, but it holds my interest otherwise. SGA I'm in it for Shep and Shep alone. House, I'm all about Chase. couldn't care less about the other characters, although House can amuse me because Hugh Laurie is good. But he's not why I watch. So with nothing to look fwd to on House now, I'm bumming. But that always ends up happening to me. Well..not always. I gave up SMALLVILLE easy enough. Loved Clark, until season 3 when the show made me love Lex, who I had hated, and loathe Clark. LOL

Do you read Joe Mallozi's blog? There have been some commentors that have just been absolutely rude. Insulting the writers, actors, producers and anyone else they can sink their fangs into. I can see disagreeing or not liking the decisions but actually attacking is just ludicrous. Oi.

Nope, haven't read his blog, but I hear a lot about it, especially all the negative crap from commentors. I think some are merely out to start arguments. Probably thinking it their fifteen minutes of fame or something. Either that or are of the type that think they can do a better job.

I'd say that Shep gets bashed by fans in discussion far more than McKay. I'm not sure why. Some folks scream about kirking; one fan went on about how Shep was evil because of his non-regulation hair. I just try to avoid those nasty areas of GW, so honestly, I only poke around in half a dozen threads!

It's why I stick strictly to the Shep whump thread. And on occasion the thunk thread. Although I haven't visited either in quite some time. Most of the negativety I only hear about. But that one vicious comment I ran into kind of blew me away. Seriously, the person who had made it was being quite the snot.

Yeah, well, have run into one or two 'snots' on GW and elsewhere in this fandom, which is why I delight in the LJ community.

Sorry, I seem a little late to the discussion. I usually just lurk and stay out of discussions but just wanted to reply to this.

You’ve come across something other Sheppard/JF fans have noticed and learned to ignore, I’m afraid. Or maybe ignore isn’t the right word. Personally, I’ve learned to avoid certain places because I don't need the aggrevation.

For some reason, “the hero” is the one that is bashed more easily. I’ve seen this in other fandoms, but it’s especially true in SGA. It’s almost like some people (not all of them of course) have this chip on their shoulder against people in charge/attractive people/military and now they’re going to show them that they are really not so great at all, so there. And aren’t they smart / wonderful for not falling for good looks (as if not everyone on that show is gorgeous) and (“fake”) charm? Very childish.

I can handle different (even when they’re negative) opinions, but not when it’s mean-spirited and/or decreed as if everyone *has to* agree, because it’s “so obvious”. The strangest thing about the loudest critics though is that they usually all say variations of the same things. Almost verbatim. I don’t get that, although it’s funny. Often it’s even something that isn’t supported by canon, like how mean Sheppard is to poor McKay or about his “kirking” (this one really irks me, because they seem to confuse being friendly with flirting and there haven’t been a lot of instances of romantic opportunities, at least not more than say, McKay). The fact that the show’s writers seem a bit …reluctant to write for Sheppard (and have to hire non-staff writers to write background eps for him *scratches head*) doesn’t help of course. It just helps them in their crusade.

Anyway, I have my favourites, but if I really hate a character/actor (which hardly ever happens), I just don’t watch the show or ignore him/her. I’ll definitely not whine about everything I don’t like about it. We all have different tastes so what would be the point? You’re not going to convince anyone who wasn’t already convinced.

Maybe it really is mostly perception because as Sheppard fans we’re bound to notice the Sheppard bashing more easily, but I think I have enough experience online to know who’s getting the most bashing (online). ;)
I really long for a good place to discuss Sheppard/JF (and anything/everyone in SGA) with respect for different opinions. Sadly your LJ is one of the (very) few places where there’s actual discussion about Sheppard or characterisation in general (in a non-condescending way). (I now avoid places like GW with all its negativity, rudeness and bickering.)

Uhm, this turned out a bit longer than I expected. Sorry about that.

Never apologize about the length of a reply. This is a discussion, so the more said the merrier.

Some have said that these nay-sayers are just out to get attention and I have to agree. Some people just like to stir up controversy for some inexplicably vindictive reason.

I'm with you. If you don't like the character, ignore them, don't try to sway everyone else toward your opinion because it's not going to happen.

I'd like to do character discussions, and have in some past posts, but I need ideas so feel free to suggest something you might like to talk about. I like discussions, they're fun.

For some reason, “the hero” is the one that is bashed more easily. I’ve seen this in other fandoms, but it’s especially true in SGA.

I have a friend like that. She has serious authority issues that she seems to take out on her fandoms. Universally, every fandom she's ever been involved in, she has villanized and bashed the hero (or heroine, in the case of Cpt. Janeway). Thus she and I discuss fandom things are little as possible.

Hmm. It's ironic: being a Rodney fan at least as much as I am a fan of Sheppard, I feel like THAT is kind of an unpopular position right now. Sometimes I'll start to write a Rodney-centric squee post on my LJ and then back off and decide not to, because I don't want to invite controversy and it seems like just admitting to liking Rodney is, well, controversial. I see a lot of posts on LJ about the show being too Rodney-focused (but not phrased nearly that politely), that the character should be killed off, etc. It's one of the reasons why I haven't been reading episode discussions much, because it's depressing to really like an episode and then go on LJ and find a bunch of people saying that the episode sucked because Rodney was in it or because it had too much Sheppard and McKay banter ... and I've resolved to try to avoid episode discussions for the fourth season except with people I know and trust, because I just want to enjoy the squee for an episode without running across a bunch of people talking about how much they hate one of my favorite characters (even though I know it's silly to care).

It also seems to me that there are a lot more stories available that feature Sheppard, especially in the role of "whumpee" -- I like that, but I also like to read Rodney stories, and lately I've been finding it difficult to local any good Rodney h/c. There are a lot of good writers doing Sheppard whump, but very few besides Tipper and Tazmy who write anything for Rodney.

I guess my point is that I've seen a lot more bashing or just ignoring of McKay than of Sheppard ... but with my Rodney focus, maybe I'm just not seeing the rest of it, or not going to the places where it happens.

And, as a Rodney fan, I'm terribly sorry if Rodney fans on Gateworld or elsewhere are being jerks; I don't go on Gateworld and I haven't seen what is being discussed, but I know how unhappy it makes me when I read posts that tear down Rodney and DH. Character bashing is a nasty thing to do, no matter who's being criticized; there are characters on the show I don't like nearly as much as others, but I know that every character is *someone's* favorite.

Character bashing in fic, though ... hmm, that's kind of a tricky one, because so much of it is so subjective. There's actually an example from one of your recent stories, the communication one, that I just read on sga-flashfic tonight (catching up after my internet-less vacation).

The way I see the characters, one of Rodney's key character traits is his nonviolence -- backed up by episodes like "Lost Boys" (where he's the only person we've ever seen who wasn't made violent by the Wraith enzyme -- even in the grip of an overdose he fights only to the extent he has to, to escape) and "Tao" where he uses his "superpowers" to disarm the bad guys without hurting them. While I loved Rodney's "protect Sheppard" mode in your story, the idea of Rodney beating the crap out of someone with his bare hands is very much not the Rodney I see on the show. I can't even imagine him doing that.

But does that really make it *bashing*? I don't really think you meant to bash Rodney; you just see him as a more violent person than I do, and I liked the story even though the idea of Rodney attacking somebody seemed OOC to me. That's how I generally feel when I run across a characterization that I don't quite buy in fanfic: that the person is reading things into the character that I don't personally see, not that they're deliberately trying to tear down the character. Actual, bona-fide character bashing in this fandom's fic, in the sense of using a character one-dimensionally as a villain, seems to be mostly Kavanagh, Caldwell or (lately) Sam Carter. I *have* occasionally run across stories that gave me that unpleasant stomach-twisty feeling of "This writer hates my character and wants them to look bad" for my beloved Sheppard or Rodney, but really not very many of them. I don't really buy the "dark Sheppard" characterization, but most of those stories, at least most of the ones I've read, seem to be actually written by fans of the character who want to explore a darker side to him than the show has done. And sometimes the same writer will have other stories that make their liking for the character obvious.

So it is more a matter of persepctive as I've always felt that, some days, there just isn't enough Shep-whump fics. But I do know that's perspective since I've pretty much read every Shep-whump fic there is to read, making it feel like there aren't many when there are, in fact, tons.

But more than that, yeah, I know a lot of it is merely perspective. That maybe they (the writer) don't see it as bashing but as a side of that character they find fascinating. I have run into stories that bash because they're trying to achieve something that, in truth, can't happen. Woobie McKay stories, for example, which actually bashes both John and Rodney - making John the jerk and Rodney a wuss.

Some stories leave me wondering if subtle bashing is involved and others I know it's simply a matter of perspective. No, I wasn't bashing Rodney. I think anyone, even non-violent men like Rodney, have their breaking points, especially when it comes to someone being in danger. To me, I was complimenting him, not on being violent but on doing what it takes to protect someone else. I can see him punching someone when at the frayed end of his rope and between a rock and a hard place. One punch, that's it. But I would never have him beat the crap out of someone because, yeah, that isn't who he is.

To me, bashing is more than simply making someone OOC, it's making them OOC in a way so we, the reader, don't like them. Making one character a complete jerk so we feel sorry for the other character is where you see it the most, I think. I've also heard of John being made an idiot (more like airhead) and Rodney complete scum, but such stories are most likely of the kind written by people either still in Middleschool or who have no idea how to write.

As for bashing in forums, it's not really McKay fans. Or at least I don't think it is. I've only ever come across one nasty comment but I hear a lot about them. It's like you can't be a fan of anyone without having someone jump down your throat about it.

It's like you can't be a fan of anyone without having someone jump down your throat about it.

Oh, absolutely true! I feel especially bad for fans of characters like Weir and Carter who get bashed all the time, everywhere. I'm not a huge Carter fan, but the extreme negativity towards her, and the way she's been made a baddie in SGA fics ever since the casting news came out, makes me very uncomfortable and I don't like to read stories in which she's used as a plot device to screw up everybody else's good time. I felt the same about Caldwell; in fact, one of the reasons why I started writing Caldwell-positive stories was because no one else seemed to be doing it!

I do think the actual bashing appears out of proportion to people who are a fan of the character; I mean, I *feel* like everywhere I go, I see people talking about how much they hate Rodney (including in this thread), but I don't think it's as ubiquitous as it feels -- it's just that I notice and remember the anti-McKay comments because I like him. I've also never been personally attacked for liking McKay -- anonymously, yes (they didn't specifically mention my name, but it was rather obvious it was my stories they were talking about) but not to my face, so maybe I've just been lucky to avoid that, or maybe anti-McKay fans are a polite lot. :) And I hope that my writing about the characters doesn't come across as bashing; I really do like all of them (granted, some more than others), and one of the things I enjoy about them is how flawed they all are -- it makes them interesting to me, and I like to work with those flaws when I write them. I don't ever want to fall into the trap of feeling like any of the characters, even those I love, are perfect and can do no wrong; very boring characterization lies thataway!

I can see him punching someone when at the frayed end of his rope and between a rock and a hard place. One punch, that's it. But I would never have him beat the crap out of someone because, yeah, that isn't who he is.

Oh, see, I'd got the idea from reading the story, from the damage to his hand and the way he was acting, that he'd lost it and really beaten the snot out of the guy. One punch is a little different than what I was thinking.

Anyway though, that makes it an even better example of how the writer's intentions with regards to the characters don't always come through in the story. I'm familiar with your writing and I like and trust the way that you characterize the main bunch, but if I'd come upon this story without having read anything by the writer before, my first reaction would have been that this person doesn't see Rodney the way I see him.

But I don't *want* to see writers stay just within the narrow boundaries of the characters' behavior as strictly defined by what we've seen in the show. I mean, I'm not saying that we all should write wildly OOC, but I do want to read stories where the writers push the characters a little bit, grow them, change them in logical and plausible ways if necessary. There are a lot of situations that come up in fic to which we haven't seen them react in canon, and we as writers can only guess about how they're going to react. The risk of course is that we'll take them in ways that read as OOC to other people, but it is just one of the risks of writing.

I do know what you mean about the nasty John/woobie Rodney type of stories, though, and I agree that it's demeaning to both characters -- doormat!Rodney is no more him than abusive!John. But there's a pretty large gray area in the middle, where I'm not really sure that I'm on board with the characterization but I wouldn't exactly call them OOC -- they're just not written how I would personally write them.

I think a story is going to be far better when the writer shows equal respect for the characters, like you. I may get frustrated with Rodney at times (I think it's because he talks so much and I've never been comfortable around people like that in real life) but I never reach a point where I hate his character. He is a fascinating character and I do enjoy writing him. In fact, there's no character on either SG-1 or Atlantis that I hate. They're all fascinating in their own unique way.

Anyway though, that makes it an even better example of how the writer's intentions with regards to the characters don't always come through in the story.

Yeah, I'd kind of written it fast and it left me wondering if I needed to go into more detail on certain parts, but I was tired and didn't care.

There are a lot of situations that come up in fic to which we haven't seen them react in canon, and we as writers can only guess about how they're going to react. The risk of course is that we'll take them in ways that read as OOC to other people, but it is just one of the risks of writing.

I think that's what frustrates me the most with fanfiction. I know good and well you can't please all of the people all of the time (or even some of the people some of the time) but there's still this desire to do so. For me, it's usually because I'm trying to be considerate toward fans of a particular character since bad or poor characterization is a universal frustration.

But if people don't like a particular story of mine because the characterization isn't their favorite, I'm cool with that. I would hate being expected to read something of the kind I don't usually like, so don't hold the same expectations for others.

(Ironic side note... I'd *just* been complaining about the dearth of good Rodney fic here, and then got back from vacation to discover several nice new ones on the various communities and journals that I frequent! *laughs*)

But anyhow ... yeah, when I write a story, I want to do justice to all the characters, even if there are those I'm not personally all that fond of. I understand that some people may not be on board with the way that I characterize people in my stories, but I do try.

Using a canon character as a one-dimensional baddie is just lazy writing -- just as much as having a one-dimensional bad guy in original fic. And since I know that every character is *someone's* favorite character, I don't want to leave anybody with a bad taste in their mouth because of the way I treated someone they like. Even when I'm playing with the character's negative personality traits, as I sometimes do, I try very hard to make it true to how we've seen them on the show.

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