Food for Plot Bunnies

[kriadydragon]

I think by now you all know how I feel about stories that involve Rodney yelling at John for stepping in front of that bullet, or Rodney yelling at John until John miraculously heals from his mental torment. And John, of course, grinning and enjoying it because "it's Rodney, it's what Rodney does, and it means that everything is okay."

With some stories, depending on how it's handled, I can buy it. With others, it leaves me rather frustrated because A: in terms of Rodney yelling at John for risking his life to save others, it's rather ungrateful and B: in terms of yelling at John until he heals or opens up, I'm a firm believer that such an action would only make it worse. Finally, even though ranting and raving tends to be Rodney's way of handling things, I feel there has to come a point where Sheppard has had enough - especially when the ranting and raving involves insulting John in some way. Going along with that, I just can't buy Rodney ever calling John an idiot or moron, at least to his face and at least not without John taking offense and fighting back.

However, I do find the potential consequences of such reactions intriguing. I've always wanted to read a story where John does become fed up with the berating, forced purging, insults, or ranting and raving. I've also wanted to write such stories. I've come up with quite a few ideas that involve the consequences of John being forced to open up (they keep turning into chapter fic, though, so it may be a while when or if I write them.) As for Rodney insulting John - getting after him for taking that bullet or what have you - I still haven't been able to come up with anything and doubt that I will. Like I said, I just can't see Rodney doing those things. Therefore, I can't bring myself to write him like that.

But I still find it a fascinating concept full of potential. The story wouldn't have to be centered around the consequences, but could be a subplot or maybe the catalyst to something bigger. Just an idea to ponder if anyone is in need of one. I'm still toying with the concept off and on myself. Hopefully it will result in a one-shot as I'm not ready to return to major chapter fics, yet.

Comments

[kristen999.livejournal.com]

Rodney rants and raves on a normal bases and of course thats has he handles stress, but is the whole him berating John for being a 'hero' or insulting him for taking a bullet more of a fandom thing vs canon to be truthful?

That could be the reason why you have hard time coming up with ideas. Its agasint the grain so to speak.

Its like the fandom thing of John being everyone's favorite patient or a popular member in the infirmary when he's rarely there or has even had surgery..ya know. I hate seeing that in fics..drives me crazy.

[fitzwiggity.livejournal.com]

Interesting...

I've never really given the matter much thought when I read other fics on FF.net, and/or livejournals.

I think if you did write a fic like that, a lot of people would very (VERY!) interested in the story, and stick around to read it. :D

[vecturist.livejournal.com]

I see Rodney yelling at Sheppard as sort of a human/gut reaction, "you just did what?" forgetting for a moment he is military and its his job, but that's it.

To feed the plot bunnies on Sheppard opening up, I'd love to see it. I don't think Sheppard would ever truly open up, he might let a couple things slip, but he's military , he's been trained to compartmentalize, and if he were black ops, I think he's accepted some things as part of the job. Those demons have to be extremely dark and probably not something a civilian would understand. I could see the McKay/Sheppard friendship being severely damaged if McKay truly knew some of things Sheppard's done - I know I really saw an older friend in a different light after he explained a few things he did during his tours in Vietnam.

[kristen999.livejournal.com]

Though I do like the idea of John opening up...kind of how he did in your fic for the genficathon where Shep casually talked about things he normally would never do...but truly opening up about things other then his past..actual thoughts and feeling is an interesting idea.

[sholio]

See... as far as Rodney yelling at/insulting John, and the relative in-character-ness of it, I think it would depend on how it's done. For me, the way I see Rodney, he's a person with no verbal filters who talks a lot but hates admitting how he really feels -- it makes perfect sense that he'd react with anger and bluster in a situation where he's struggling with emotions he doesn't know how to express: for example, yelling at John for worrying him. That sounds like pitch-perfect Rodney to me. And John tends to see straight through that sort of thing -- I wouldn't see him being genuinely hurt by it any more than Rodney was hurt by John's mocking him in episodes like Echoes or Game.

What skews the dynamic is when writers have Rodney being his aggressive, blustery self but don't allow John to fight back. In situations like that, John reads as OOC as Rodney, if not more so, to me. The thing is, John (as I see him) is not a guy who wallows in guilt or cringes from an insult. It's just as bad as when writers depict Rodney as a doormat who has no ability to fight back against John's teasing. They both give and receive some pretty hard verbal punches, and are capable of rolling with it. On the other hand, if either one of them genuinely can't fight back, for whatever reason, they're both capable of pulling their verbal punches and do tend to do that in canon when the other one isn't able to give back as good as he gets. (The ending of Miller's Crossing comes to mind here -- Rodney starts out pushing hard, because he really wants to understand what happened, but pulls back when he realizes that John doesn't want to talk about it.)

Of course, different writers differ in how much they play up the characters' verbal aggressiveness. As a writer, I'm generally more wary of the "too nice" trap than the "too nasty" one, because the characters do have an edge to them and I'd rather err on the side of putting in more fight in them than less. In the whole series, the two of them have only had two serious fights that we've seen (in Trinity and Adrift) which, considering how much they snipe at each other, says a lot about their ability to take the verbal sparring in a friendly sort of way. On the other hand, that doesn't mean it's impossible to write a genuine fight between them. Honestly, I'd love to read more stories that deal with a serious difference of opinion between them -- or any of the team, really. It seems like most of what you find out there is fic in which everyone gets along well -- which I don't have a problem with, because it's total canon and, also, very sweet. But when writers do try to deal with differences in the team, it's often ham-handed and just plain bad, like the infamous Rodney-after-Trinity ones. I really like seeing the characters allowed to be flawed and human and imperfect in fic, and I would really like to see more stories where John and/or Rodney deal with physical/emotional pain in socially unhealthy ways -- because people do that. Actually, that's one thing I really like about Kodiak's stories, because her John tends to become a total ass when he's struggling with the after-effects of injury or PTSD, and that really rings true to me because a lot of people, especially really physically-focused and emotionally suppressed people like John, deal with trauma by snapping at and pushing away people around them.

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

That's the kind of story I would like to one day do - John opening up because he wants to, not because he's made to. I would also like to do one dealing with John being forced to open up. I read an SG-1 story a while back - very dark - where Daniel was tortured mercilessly. He was so horribly traumatized by it that he turned inward. Jack, in turn, tries to "force" Daniel to get over what happened to him. In the end, rather than make things better, it made things worse.

I feel that a similar concept for Sheppard would be interesting. Not necessarily him tortured but perhaps something else. I just see so many stories that are all "Okay, Sheppard, you will tell us about your deep dark past whether you like it or not" with Sheppard eventually relenting because "you're hurting your friends being so closed off" that I've come to long reading or writing something that deals with such a situation more realistically. And, realistically, I think forcing him to purge his demons would only do to push him away. But that's just my opinion.

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

I used to not give it much thought either until reading story after story along the same vein. Then it got me thinking ;).

I doubt I'd tackle such a story. shepaprd being forced to open up, yes, because I know ways to make that happen that would also make it believable. Getting Rodney to insult John until he snaps... that ones far trickier as both boys are good at defelcting insults and giving as good as they take.

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

And that's what makes it such a fun challenge - figuring out ways to get Sheppard to open up :D. Not about everything, just a few things here and there. Some things are Sheppard's business and will remain Sheppard's business. Although it would also be interesting to see how Rodney reacts if sheppard did divulge something very dark from his past.

[kristen999.livejournal.com]

Kodiak's stories, because her John tends to become a total ass when he's struggling with the after-effects of injury or PTSD, and that really rings true to me because a lot of people, especially really physically-focused and emotionally suppressed people like John, deal with trauma by snapping at and pushing away people around them.

You know its good to know that there are people out there who like to see that. The story everybetty and I are trying to finish is exactly just that. Our John is moody, snappy and to a degree an a$$hole towards his team in some instances. A couple of times we stopped and were a tad worried how people would react but its realistic a lot of the times in real life.

Everyone always tends to have John struggle valiantly with his team cheering on which is good and I enjoy that, but sometimes I think John might become depressed or even ticked off by his own struggles.

There are other circumstances that add fuel to the fire with what we're doing of course, but its kind of a big sigh to know that there are others who see this way.

Up sorry for the hijack. :D

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

"What skews the dynamic is when writers have Rodney being his aggressive, blustery self but don't allow John to fight back."

That's what bothers me. When Rodney insults and John insults right back, then it's all good. But when it's one of them insulting without the other ever saying anything in return, then it kind of bugs me because you "know" that, eventually, something will be said by one that the other just "has" to react to. It's who they are, and it's neither as fun nor even natural when they don't. And I just feel that if Rodney ever did call Sheppard a moron or idiot to his face, that would be something John would have to react to. It just doesn't seem like something he'd take so lightly as I've seen happen in some fics. But that could just be my view of things.

I fear I fall into the "too nice" category with Rodney, sometimes. I kind of have a low tolerance for uber aggressive, can-do-no-wrong Rodney. Mostly because his caring side ends up buried beneath his rock-solid ego.

"I really like seeing the characters allowed to be flawed and human and imperfect in fic, and I would really like to see more stories where John and/or Rodney deal with physical/emotional pain in socially unhealthy ways -- because people do that."

Man I so want to write something like that, just for practice. I tend to be a little wary when it comes to giving characters flaws, worrying over creating a character that is either over-flawed in a way that makes the character hard to like, or so under-flawed they're skirting the edges of Mary-Sue-dom. I think that's why I'm a little obsessed with writing a story where Sheppard reacts badly to being forced to open up about something terrible that happened to him. It has a lot of potential for deep, dark conflicts that would be interesting to tackle (having never really done it before, myself.)

[reen212000.livejournal.com]

One day, someone will come out and tell me my ramblings are totally lame, and I would agree. But I didn't write it for them... unless they asked me to, of course.

A lot of times I feel I can never get quite the handle on John as I can Rodney. It all comes out in my writing. I can never push any kind of envelope. I never dance where angels fear to tread. That would be out of my comfort zone; I still imagine myself as an amateur in the fanfic community.

Sometimes, John is clearer through Rodney for me. Dealing with my moronic co-workers on a daily basis has me channeling the snark. (However, I've been doing that long before I met Rodney McKay. Who hasn't?) And I know I'm guilty of not always letting John fight back. I think John would do it in a quiet way, and not really explode. Yes, I think of Miller's Crossing. He had a very nice implosion, not too aggressive, and not loud. Rodney pushed, and there was a reaction.

Man I so want to write something like that, just for practice. I tend to be a little wary when it comes to giving characters flaws, worrying over creating a character that is either over-flawed in a way that makes the character hard to like, or so under-flawed they're skirting the edges of Mary-Sue-dom. I think that's why I'm a little obsessed with writing a story where Sheppard reacts badly to being forced to open up about something terrible that happened to him. It has a lot of potential for deep, dark conflicts that would be interesting to tackle (having never really done it before, myself.)

DO IT! You know you've got the best fan-base to support you, and it'll be better than the emo/romance dren ff.net's been serving up. Your fellow LJers await anything you have in store, so don't be shy.

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

John's head is the hardest to get into but I feel him the easiest to write. Rodney's head is easy to get into but he isn't always easy to write, at least for me. Weird, huh? But I think that, for me, I'm a very *this character + this situation = this particular reaction from said character*. It's the situation, the moment, that defines the character (in that moment, of course) for me. For example, Sheppard tortured to discover Atlantis' address - no big deal for him so long as he never gives up the address. Torture his team in front of him to get the address - now you've got feral Sheppard. Torture him just to be torturing him - possibly insane Sheppard, maybe even a subdued Sheppard depending on how bad it was.

All I need is a basic idea of the character, a "feel" for him, a particular situation in which to ponder what reaction that situation would garner from the character, and the rest falls into place. However, if I think on it too much, try to go too deep into the character's psyche, then I end up tripping myself up.

Hey, you're not the only one who rambles ;)

I actually have two stories in mind, one a future fic AU and the other an earth-side healing story. The Future-fic I like for the advneture potential, but the earth-side one I like because it's quieter and I know it'll be shorter. What it all comes down to is what I'm in the mood to write. But it'll be a while before I do as I have the biggest craving to write good old fashioned adventure fic.

And I find the trick to writing a snarky John is to have him respond in words only, with no expression except maybe a light smirk. And what he says should be short, calm and just a touch wierd. Unless he's angry, then he scowls and growls a low, menacing "McKay!"

Anyways, that's what I do. I adore snarky John. For me, it's the hilight of writing J/R friendship fic. They're such goofs :D.

[obsessed1o1.livejournal.com]

I totally see Rodney reacting in anger to anything Johnmay have done but only as a "reaction" to being worried for him. I don't think it's ungrateful per se.

And i would see Rodney as maybe trying to get Sheppard back to health by snarking him and pushing him, because i think for someone like Sheppard that's what it's going to take to get him to pull himself together. I don't think Sheppard would take any of his comments to heart and feel bad - i think he'd know by now that Rodney is Rodney and that in his own way he'd be trying to help him - but he's not going to just sit there and take it. If Something gets to Sheppard and McKay pushes him to hard i can totally see him reacting too.

I don't think Sheppard would ever really open up. He'l give them glimpses, say enough to get by but i think for him, admitting what he's done, it would scare McKay. Maybe not Teyla and Ronon because they're a bit more hardy, but i cant see him truly opening up to McKay and telling him all about his past.

Jeez, did that make any sense LOL!!!

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

"I totally see Rodney reacting in anger to anything Johnmay have done but only as a "reaction" to being worried for him. I don't think it's ungrateful per se."

It's usually the way that it's handled, though, that after a while bugs me. If it's Rodney reacting, then it's just Rodney reacting, but there have been stories where it's the whole team that reacts, berating Shepaprd for putting his life in danger. I know why the author does it and where they're trying to go with it, but sometimes they kind of... push it, I guess? There was a story I read where Carson totally got after Sheppard for "not taking care of himself and getting injured again." But the reason he had gotten injured in the first place was because, at the time, he and his men were under attack and Sheppard was trying to save them. It just didn't feel right that Sheppard would get so chewed out and belittled (by everyone, eventually) for doing what he had to do. I know they're just showing they care, it's just that I think the author could have handled it a lot better: had the characters show a little gratitude or at least some understanding as to why Sheppard did what he did (which they kind of didn't). But then the whole story was mostly one big fanon cliche.

I don't think Sheppard would feel bad, either - which many have pointed out. To me, though, it's not a matter of feeling bad but of being pushed. I feel that, after escaping a situation where all control was taken from Shep, there would come a point when all the pushing, prodding, berating and being told what to do by his friends would eventually - not really send him over the edge, but certainly bring him close to it. And Not Rodney's berating and pushing alone because, yeah, that's just Rodney. It's when it's everyone telling Sheppard to do this or that (mostly go see Heightmeyer or talk about what happened). I can see that kind of bombardment doing negative things to him, not matter the good intentions involved.

My biggest pet peeve when it comes to Rodney cajoling Sheppard back to good mental health is when the author protrays Rodney as this person who's suddenly in tune with the emotions of others, where he has all the answers to Sheppard's problems and gives those answers as though they were the most obvious thing in the world. It's nothing really prevalent or anything, but when I do run into it, it leaves me a little frustrated, as well as cheated of a potentially sweet Sheppard and McKay moment. I prefer it when Rodney bumbles his way verbally before finally saying something that does help Sheppard - because feels more like Rodney, as opposed to him spitting out the answers while rolling his eyes at Shep for being so obtuse, then grinning smugly when Sheppard realizes he has a point because Rodney is always right about everything.

Again, thankfully not prevalent, but I think the few that I have run into has left me a little extra picky when it comes to how Rodney and Sheppard interact. I love McKay on the show, but in fic, there are times I want to strangle him.