kriadydragon | Hardcore Writing

Okay, I think by now most of you on my F'list know how I feel about excessive swearing in stories, sex scenes and so on. But I would like to set those personal opinions aside for a moment as I don't wan this to be another "rage against squicks!" post. I need some honest opinions here.

I've come to realize that between original stories and fanfiction stories, fanfiction stories are a lot more hard core in their writing than most of the original stories I've read. What I mean by that is that in fanfiction, I've encountered a lot more heavy swearing (the F word said five times in one page, for example) and a lot more raunchy behavior/thinking/jokes (example, more mention of certain areas of the human anatomy): which is my personal definition of hard core writing. This is not to say original works are never hard-core, it's just that I seem to encounter it more heavily in fanfic than originals, but that could just be because I'm more selective about what I read.

Still, I find that the hard-core type of writing found in fanfiction - for me, at least - sometimes makes the story difficult to read. Yes, most of that is due to personal likes and dislikes, which brings me to my question...

Hard-core writing, is there a limit? Should there be a limit? What I mean by this is, when it comes to original works, do you think writers kind of put a leash on themselves when it comes to the hard core stuff? And even if you are a fan of hard-core, or it doesn't bother you, is there a point where it does bother you? Where you get tired of a character or characters constantly thinking in terms of pornography and sex? Or do you get distracted by all the constant swearing? I've pondered this not because of personal likes and dislikes, but because there are original stories that I've read that feel PG compared to some fanfics. Original stories written for adults, who aren't afraid to go really dark. Is it something an author needs to be careful of so as not to bog down their readers?

Apologies for any confusion. This is rather hard to explain. But if you know, or think you know, where I'm going with this then, please, talk to me. Let me know your thoughts.

Also keep in mind that my reading is limited to mostly fantasy and sci-fi with the occasional side order of mysteries and classics. I've never read romance and don't plan to ever read it.

Current Mood: thoughtful

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I'm not sure you can compare the two. Fanfic is written based on the specific areas of interest the author has for the fandom - whump, ship, slash, action, humor, etc. They take characters they know and love and put them in the situations they'd like to see.

Original fiction - regardless of genre, I think - is less specific, meant to reach the masses. This kind of fiction is more comparable to the show itself instead of fanfic. The show has something for everyone while nothing too "hard" so it can attract the biggest audience.

That being said, for me personally, it depends on the setting and the mood I'm in.

On language, I think certain situations call for stronger language. As I've said before, you won't find the f word in anything I write. But while John might say "crap" if he stubs his toe, he's more likely to use something harsher when he's enraged at a wrong or seriously hurt. I've heard before that prolific use of profanity is the sign of an unimaginative writer. I'm trying to not be one of those so I use it sparingly and only in the situations (specifically dialogue) where I think it would be appropriate. I do find excessive swearing to be extremely distracting.

For sex - if I want to read a story about sex (which is rare), I know where to find them. If I want to read an action story (or a humorous one or anything else), I'm not interested in having porn mixed in. To me, romance is its own genre (and porn a completely separate one). Tell me in advance if there's romance in it so I can make an informed decision on whether I want to read it.

After all that, I'm not sure I answered your question. If you are questioning on whether to add this to your fanfics, no. Don't change a thing. If you are pondering adding it your original fic, same answer. Leave the hard core stuff to those who want to write it. Not all of us read it. We need good fic (both original and fanfic) that is about substance and not flash.

Actually what I'm asking is whether or not you (and by you I mean you and those who read this post) think it's an unspoken (or maybe spoken?) practice for writer's of original works to limit themselves on certain things - such as how often they use the F-word, how detailed they get when mentioning certain areas of the anatomy (and how often they use such words) and so on. Or if it's just all a matter of what the story needs/doesn't need. Is there a need for limits, or does it really matter?

I don't plan on ever going into that kind of hard core with my stories. I'm just being curious. After coming across a lot of fanfic with some pretty heavy writing methods, it got me wondering if writers of original work do put a limit on what they're willing to put into the stories. For the sake of the readers and sale there's no doubt. But is it also a matter of good writing? After all, too much of something isn't always a good thing, and like you said "I've heard before that prolific use of profanity is the sign of an unimaginative writer." So is it also a matter of mechanics and skills? Is it important to know when to draw the line, or does it not really matter?

Now I think I'm just rambling. Again, sorry if this is confusing. I know what it is I'm trying to say, but thinking is one thing and saying is another and my thoughts keep trying to go all over the place with this :/.

But while John might say "crap" if he stubs his toe, he's more likely to use something harsher when he's enraged at a wrong or seriously hurt. I've heard before that prolific use of profanity is the sign of an unimaginative writer.

My goodness, you've almost used word for word exactly what I tell my 17 yo nephew. But it's the same with writing.

I suspect the difference is that in published novels, publishing companies have a lot of say in final content. Romance novel, of course, have plenty of sex scenes, but that's assumed by people who my the novels. There are some novels with a lot of swearing, usually novels geared toward men - war novels, etc. The bulk of novels, though, in other genres (historical, scifi/fantasy, etc.) are geared towards a general audience -- men, women, young adults of various ages -- so they're kept in the pg range (light on sex, light on swearing).

I think, originally, fanfiction was started by people who wanted the inclusion of elements that publishers/broadcasters won't allow in novels/movies/shows intended for the general public. Over time, other people who just liked to write jumped on board and the range of content in fanfiction became broader, but fanfiction is still, at its essence, the chance for fans to write things that the professional writers wouldn't be allowed to do.

Over time, other people who just liked to write jumped on board and the range of content in fanfiction became broader, but fanfiction is still, at its essence, the chance for fans to write things that the professional writers wouldn't be allowed to do.

True, very true. After writing this post, I did come to realize that sales does have a lot to do with it. For the sake of making a sale, you do have to take the readers into consideration. The other half of my curiosity, though, is more mechanics and "how much is too much?" Because I'm so picky and have certain limits, certain things in fic (such as prolific use of foul language) can be distracting to me. But, at times, is that just me, or are the authors going overboard? Is there a point where an abundance of something - language, sex - becomes too much and, therefore, distracting for the majority of readers?

The problem with that question is that it's subjective. I'm a pg person, myself. To make matters worse, I don't like romance. Consequently, any sex is too much sex for me. But someone who is a romance fan may think that there can never be too much sex. So, I think a writer has to write according to what seems natural for the story verses what might please the reader or what the writer is wholly comfortable. When I read a romance novel (I don't care for it in general, but there are a few I adore, ie. Diana Gabaldon's Outlander series), I have a higher tolerance for sex scenes.

When it comes to language, I'm more flexible. I think the language needs to suit the character. For example, when I read soldier stories, I expect soldier language. Of course, that can be taken to the extreme. Swearing every other word is still going to be too much for me, but if some grunt wading through a rice field in 'Nam says 'Shoot, this gosh darn mud is freaking crap' I'm going to find that MUCH more distracting and inappropriate than the actual swear words. If a swear word is the appropriate response, then it ought to be used, in my opinion, rather than inserting something milder. For example, with the above sentence, the same thing with fewer, but actual swear words would be preferable for me.

Even for milder setting, such as Atlantis, when Sheppard says gosh or darn or shoot in a fanfiction, I find is distractingly out of character and thus it diminishes the story for me. (Though if John uses crap or freakin' instead of the alternatives, that's no problem.)

In fanfiction, the cleanliness of a character's mouth has usually already been established and should be maintained. With original fiction, it's the original author who sets the bar on that sort of thing. If the character starts out never cursing, then I don't think it's going to bother the reader that he or she never curses. However, still, if a situation arises that would provoke a shouted curse and that's omitted or toned down, it's distracting. Writers, I think, need to consider the natural play of things and what's appropriate for the religion and culture of their character. Ie. if a character is staunchly religious, then it's can be considered in character to insert a darn or a gosh or a shoot (the character might even be teased about it by other characters), but anything short of that, then it's not very natural for a curse word to NEVER be uttered.

I've often that if I ever wrote original fiction to be published, I'd write young adult novels because the expectation is clean language, which I'm more comfortable writing. :)

*Nods* Very true to all of it. I'm biased, have a lot of squicks and dislikes, so can never really tell if an author is going overboard with something or if it's just me, or if there is such a thing as over doing things. In original fiction, that's never been a problem for me, but I'm also not that diveresed in what I read, so can't say for sure what is and isn't being done.

I think it depends on two things, neither of which is the original/fanfic distinction. Rather,it's the type of story you're writing, and who the characters are. Me, I'm not interested in the kinds of stories that would require sex and heavy swearing, and I don't want those kinds of characters inhabiting my head. So while my stories might have some swearing, it's only in instances where the characters are under extreme stress or are in shock. And that's true for everything I write, original or fanfic.

...Does that answer what you were asking?

Hmmmmmm... I think so. Because I'm very particular in my reading, I haven't come across a lot of stories that are as heavy handed in their writing style as some fanfic stories, which is why I got to wondering if published authors are more careful about how they write, and whether it's for the sake of sales, the sake of a story, or both.

It probably varies, writer to writer and genre to genre. But I'm like you, and do my best to steer clear of that kind of thing, so my field of reading is pretty narrow and sparsely populated.

My thoughts are that original writing by professional authors is designed to be available for every one. If they went to far often then we would probably end up having to deal with a rating system for books. It would be like music and games that are rated T for Teen and M for Mature and so on. That would be a nightmare. Who would decide the limits and how would it all be monitored?

There are some genres that lend themselves to more explicit sex scenes or more ...uh...colorful shall we say...language. Those genres are usually read by people that are looking for that. I wouldn't pick up a science fiction book if I wanted explicit descriptions of couples or I wouldn't worry about recommending a Fantasy novel to someone because of foul language. I am pretty comfortable with the levels of more Mature material in these type of books to be able to tell anyone to that I like it and they might too. I wouldn't do that for a romance novel that is pretty steamy.

Now as to Fanfic...I feel that it is a chance for many amateur authors (or even professional ones that just want to be free to do what they want) to let their inner thoughts go wild. They aren't writing to make money. They are writing because something about the characters or the setting has appealed to them and they want to expand on what others have created. They can allow themselves the freedom to write what they like because they are just borrowing the universe for awhile. They aren't making a living from it.

I don't mind porn stories or strong language, but I MUST be looking for it. I don't like starting a fic and having details inserted that I didn't want to read. I am a little more forgiving of foul language but if it gets to be every other sentence has something in it then I just stop reading. To me it is some one just out to shock or vent some of their own frustrations. I don't appreciate that. I don't hang around people that talk like that so why would I read it.

I'm guessing I could have probably summed this all up in that Original fic is made for money and fanfic is just a creative outlet for some people.

But when an author limits their content, is it because it's all about making the sale? Or is there more to it?

So far, it does seem to come down to sales and catering to as many as the populace as possible. I still want to know if there is such a thing as "too much" (in published work, not fanfiction. Really this post has nothing to do with fanfiction - it's more about original fiction. Comparing what people do in fanfic and what people do in original fiction is simply what got me thinking). I already know there's such a thing as "too little". I used to not include swears in my stories at all until people started telling me how more "realistic" the stories would be if I did. Do published authors create their own limits for the sake of sales, or is it also about drawing the line to prevent a story from being too difficult to read?

But as Bratfarrar pointed out, it does come down to the kind of story you're writing and the characters. Each author probably has a personal limit according to what the story needs, who their readers are, etc.

I do think that each author would have their own personal limit,as each reader does. They would just have to find their place in the writing world. I am sure there are books out there that would curl my hair with what I would deem waaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyy too much detail or an overabundance of sex or just plain too much foul language. Those authors either found their niche and a publisher who would find a place for their stories or they published themselves. There are "Adult" book stores out there that don't sell just magazines.

I do think that each author would have their own personal limit,as each reader does. They would just have to find their place in the writing world.

*Nods*

I'm pretty much with you and also

wildcat88 on this. I just cant read fic with so much swearing in it. I understand say a movie like Die Hard. John McClane did swear through that but it was rather understandable. And not every second word.
I just get bored and lose interest in a fic that is full of swearing. And I can't really imagine someone like Rodney actually swearing. He's too intellectual. (I don't think he'd know many words :D)

Edited Date: 2009-02-07 01:11 am (UTC)

Rodney strikes me as the kind of person who would think swearing shows a deficiency of vocabulary and a lack of imagination.

I hate to disagree, but Rodney curses more (on the show) than all the others combined.

But it's not the 'F' Word. I just don't notice it in the shwow.

Really? Gosh, I guess it's been a while since I've seen the show.

I'm starting to wonder if that's why I feel there is such a thing as going overbaord with something. I haven't been doing a lot of novel reading lately, mostly just fanfic reading, and only SGA and Dr.Who fic - both very PG shows. So when I read them in extreme stories with a lot of swearing, a lot of violence and then some, sometimes it feels like it's too much. But that's because it all comes down to perception. Like you, I don't see Rodney as someone who would swear a lot, but there are others who probably think he would.

I'm not sure if you're asking about published (and I'm not talking "vanity" presses) writers or people who post their original fiction online, but...

I think that some writers (both kinds) use cursing in their writing for the same reason they use it in their real life - limited vocabulary and/or it's something they hear constantly in their day-to-day life. They don't filter it out of their writing.

I can read stories where there is a lot of cursing; but no matter how good the remainder of the story is, I'll never consider it worth a re-read or a recommendation. Cursing, if it's used in character and sparingly, is okay.

The same goes for excessive sex. Touching, kissing - if it's a natural part of the plotline, I don't mind a little smooching. If it's a Plot What Plot? story, I don't even bother. And, frankly, most people can't write compellingly of people making love; all they write is porn - and that's boring.

I can read stories where there is a lot of cursing; but no matter how good the remainder of the story is, I'll never consider it worth a re-read or a recommendation. Cursing, if it's used in character and sparingly, is okay.

That's basically what I'm asking - do authors set limits? - not just with cursing but anything (sex, raunchy jokes, gory details, etc). But I think Karri_kln1671 said it best - it's subjective and depends on what's going on in the story, who your characters are and so on.

Okay, so I'm going to have to be the villain to defend swearing. I understand some people are uncomfortable with it in any setting, just as I understand there are some who give it a time and place, and those who use/hear it so often curses just become another word. I admit, I mostly fall into the last group. Disclaimer: I work in a library, I stay home on Friday nights, I don't drink or do raunchy things with random people - I'm not representing the edgy crowd by any stretch of the imagination. With me, it's just a cultural thing. "Foul" language is just another series of words in a long list of words not to use in front of grandma (including hate, sex, boys, kill and damn). Sometimes I'll say a sentence, someone visiting from some non-local location will point out I cursed, and I honestly do have to stop and think about it to identify the guilty word (and sometimes I get it wrong on the first shot). It's culture.

On the other hand, I do have an awareness that a lot of people don't share my vocabulary. When I write, I do my best to filter it out. Why? Because I don't want to offend my readers. When I write a story, I *want* people to read it. And I know many won't if I don't pay attention. So yes, I think a lot of the issue, especially for people looking to get paid for their work, is catering to the audience. I bet a lot of professional authors would love to throw more colorful language into their work, but restrain themselves. That's what I love about fanfiction - there's no obligation to please the audience.

I think even when censoring a story, cussing has a place no matter how much you don't want to hear it. I'm sorry, but anytime I read a story where I hear a soldier, in the heat of battle, no less, say "shucks" or "geesh" or heaven forbid, "gee" I get ticked. It's just not realistic. I can't connect with someone some obviously out of character. If the author can't handle the language that comes with the scenario, don't write it. There's plenty of scenarios to write about - why get trapped in one where you will have to venture into uncomfortable territory if you don't want to?

Of course, as with all things, there are people for whom cursing is just a natural thing, and there are others that make us look bad by trying to sound tough and just can't pull it off. Every group has its wannabe's. They think, "Oh hey, I want my story to sound bad *ss, so I'll add some cussin!" You can always tell when you read one of those stories and your head meets the desk at the epic fail.

So, limits? Stick to where you're comfortable, whether reading or writing. The virtual audience is so enormous, there really is something for everybody.

Oi, I really need to stop using examples. They always end up being the topic :S. It drives me crazy.

The real topic ran away from me. What it was all supposed to boil down to was authors having limits for the sake or the story vs. authors setting limits for the sake of catering to readers and making money.

They think, "Oh hey, I want my story to sound bad *ss, so I'll add some cussin!" You can always tell when you read one of those stories and your head meets the desk at the epic fail.

This, in a nutshell, is what led me to post this discussion. You have a lot of fanfic stories that go all out when it comes to content - not just excessive swearing, but violence, sex, gore, etc. With some stories, it smacks of the author attempting to be dark, funny, edgy, etc but getting carried away (going overboard). With other stories, it works, but if it isn't your thing it can be very overwhelming. But it was mostly the latter that got me thinking, because I've never seen the same hard-core content in published books that I have in fanfic, and it got me wondering whether it was a matter of the author setting limits for the sake of the story, or for the sake of making a buck.

Based on the discussion so far, it's a little of both - depending on the story itself, the genre and the audience you're aiming for. Of course you wouldn't put major swearing in a Young Adult book, but you also wouldn't cut out the swears in a book based on a war. An author sets their own limit based on what they write, as well as who they're writing for.

Like others have said, I think it has a lot to do with editorial views on marketability. Some genres push the envelope harder than others, because the audience will buy it -- horror can be incredibly violent; romance will often have sex but rarely violence or swearing; stuff like that. Fantasy probably leans most heavily towards all-ages material of any of the genres that I've specifically paid attention to, aside from (obviously) the entire category of YA lit. And I think it simply has a lot to do with what publishing houses will buy, and writers writing to meet those standards.

... ah, gotta run, but I have more to say about this, since this is something I've thought about quite a bit in the process of trying to become published.

I think the topic ran away from me. Now it's all over the place :S. And yet I do think it answered my question :D. So far, from what has been discussed, it seems to be a little of both - both a matter of what you write and a matter of what you're trying to sell. The author sets his/her own limits according to both - the story, the market, not to mention personal beliefs and probably even likes and dislikes.

I do still wonder if there's such a thing as going too far with specific content in published work. That no matter the audiences' tastes, the story just doesn't work for anyone. But, logically, if that happened, then the book wouldn't sell, the author would have learned his/her lesson and not repeat the mistake, and that would be the end of it.

I'm looking forward to hear what you have to say. hopefully by then my brain will have recovered. I think this topic has temporarily fried it :P.

Yeah - after reading through the rest of the discussion, I really don't think that there is a neatly drawn line between "enough" and "too much". For one thing, it's different for everyone -- personally, I'm heavily squicked by graphic violence and torture, while bad language doesn't bother me at all (and I have a bit of a foul mouth IRL). So I skim violent scenes (or glance away from the screen on TV, especially when it depicts one of my specific squicks -- like things happening to the eyes or fingernails), and will often stop reading a fic, or jump forward a few chapters, if it has detailed descriptions of violence or medical procedures. I can write (or read) graphic violence, but it's hard for me. However, I know from reading your stories that the same is not true of you, and I don't consider that a bad thing. We're all entitled to our personal likes and dislikes.

But I've also made a conscious effort to dial back on the things that don't squick me (language, nudity) in my own work, in order to avoid alienating readers. I don't go overboard with it, but looking back on what I wrote in 2000/2001, vs what I write today, it's very obvious that I've backed away from profanity and some of the more extreme types of scenes that I used to do. (Just because I don't like violence doesn't mean I won't write it; it's just that when I do, I usually go straight to a bad place rather than using the violence as a springboard for comfort later. That is, in original fiction, I'm more likely to kill a character graphically than to hurt them and let them live.) And there are some things that are squicks for huge numbers of people that I didn't even know about -- for a lot of people, for example, the death/injury of an animal is a big squick; this is not something that bothers me at all, but knowing this, I try to use it sparingly.

The big thing, I think, is I don't want to alienate readers unnecessarily. So, as I've become more consciously aware of this sort of thing, it's not that I WON'T use graphic violence or sex or language or other "adult" content; it's just that it needs to be justified by the story (and necessary to the story) in order to make up for the risk of losing a potential reader because of it. Of course, that's one of the big differences between original fic and fanfic -- fanfic is really all about gratification, and I'm a lot more likely to say, "Oh, hell with it" and go ahead and use an idea that I wouldn't dream of putting in an original story.

The other thing is impact. As I've become a more self-aware writer, I've become aware that constant use of anything -- sex, violence, profanity, humor, tragedy -- dulls its edge and makes each individual instance less effective. One of the very best pieces of writing advice I ever read was in a writing magazine that I didn't even buy; I just flipped through it on a magazine rack, perhaps 20 years ago now. It was on comedy and tragedy, and the point of the article was that either comedy or tragedy are much less effective by themselves than if they're combined -- a funny moment is more laugh-out-loud funny if you don't know it's coming, or if it's preceded by something unhappy so that you need the break; while nonstop tragedy just numbs the reader, whereas a comedy that takes a sudden turn into tragedy will really hit them hard. I think this "strength in contrast" theory is true of anything. One of the most effective uses of profanity that I've ever read in a book is in Watership Down, and it's not even really profane (in our language, anyway), but it's the only part of the book in which any character swears, and it's massively, massively effective. (If you've read the book, you might know which part; if not, I can point it out.) If your whole story effectively builds up the sexual tension between your characters, a single kiss or a single smoldering look can be as charged as an entire sex scene in a story where such things are commonplace.

I think it's too simplistic to say that the best stories use this kind of moderation, because a story is a vehicle to convey a point or a sequence of events or a character moment or a feeling, and if it's successfully getting that across, then it is a good story. If the point of a story is to arouse the reader, then discreet moderation, with all the characters keeping their clothes on, actually makes it a bad story. I like to read stories that mash down my own story-kink-triggers in the most blatant and ridiculously obvious ways. (I'm using "kink" here in the general sense, for things like hurt/comfort, not specifically sexual.) But they aren't bad stories, because they're doing just what they're designed to do, and pushing a particular set of the reader's buttons.

They would probably be very difficult stories to sell, however.

I think this most definitely answers my questions, because there are writers of original stories who always struck me as the kind that, if they could, would push the content of their stories as far as they could possibly go (this based on the kind of stories they've written, not me knowing them personally ;)). For example, one author I read went to some pretty dark places (rape, posession, graphic violence) but didn't quite cross the line of being so detailed I couldn't finish the book.

In turn, it's made me curious as to the motivation behind such restraint. Is it because the story - the plot - didn't have room for it? Is it for the audience? Or is it because their editor told them to tame it down, some? With my book, I ended up cutting out a few small snippets because the majority of the people who read my book before publishing were bothered by them. But I didn't mind cutting those scenes as they weren't uber important, and it was more like a trim than a cut.

As for where this curiosity was taking me, I'm not sure. It was curiosity for the sake of it, I guess, because I'm already a restrained author for personal reasons.

But it makes sense that there's a double reason for showing either a little or a lot of restraint, the motivation behind it based on both the story and the audience. Despite trying to write for myself in fanfic, there are things I've cut back on myself for the sake of my readers. At times, yes, it makes for a less than satisfying story for myself. But more often than not it's no big deal, and teh story ends up better than it would have if I'd caved to my personal kinks.

I'll also admit I'm somewhat into setting limits: the result of personal experience. Looking back on older fic, I see myself having gone places that, really, are just a tad overboard and skirting the egde of impossible, therefore uneblievable and even ridiculous. I'm a fan of less is more because I know what happens when you let yourself go wild and do whatever you want. Yes, it satisfies a certain kink, but after a time - as your writing skills progress - when you look back on that once satisfying story, all you feel is embarrasment for having written it.

So, for me, setting limits was a progression, starting with personal reasons, then for the sake of the story, then for the sake of the audience. And that's probably where the curiosity came from - wanting to know other people's reasons for why they do what they do. I'm always fascinated by that, especially in the writing world.

I agree with quite a few of the points already made on this, but there was one that I don't think has come up yet, so I'll pose my suggestion. I think that beyond just the editorial market, people are putting their names on their original work. Fanfiction is often anonymous; can be produced and consumed facelessly if one so desires. Like so: Note, I am anonymous! (Ostensibly, because I have no LiveJournal, but the point remains.) Nobody has any idea who I am! The walls that define acceptable behavior are considerably relaxed; my actions have no reflection on me, personally.

When you publish a book, presuming you don't use a pseudonym, that's different. Everyone can read it: your third grade teacher, your parents, your nieces or nephews, your neighbors, your grandparents, your accountant, the people who pick up the garbage or deliver your mail. (I will never for the life of me understand how Anne Rice, whom I only know of by reputation, can do it.) It's very open and very accessible. I imagine quite a few people censor themselves simply because of that.

As for content, I believe anyone should be able to write whatever they want; someone will want to read it. I don't go for hard-core. I am not a romantic by any measure, so sex scenes throw me right out of a story. They're utterly unnecessary most of the time; they don't propel my understanding of the plot and they don't add anything to the characters. If we are presented with a long-time couple (especially if they are married) we can assume they are sleeping together; we don't need to have it described for a good twenty pages. Scenes like that are included for the enjoyment of the author or the part of the audience that likes that sort of thing, which is just fine for them, but does nothing for me. One of my problems with reading published works is that they don't always come labeled with the same warnings that online works do. And, honestly, I've stumbled into smut scenes enough to know that eventually they all sound exactly alike, and, frankly, are boring. I have read one well-written sex scene, but it wasn't just about the act itself; it said deeper things about the characters in a way that's hard to describe. Simply put, it wasn't focused on being just pornographic; it served a purpose. Even so, I roll my eyes when I find another one of those scenes in a book. I just have no interest.

I often feel that editors don't attempt to weed such scenes out, either, in the same way that movies and shows often delight in tossing in as much semi- or full- nudity as possible for the sake of supposedly increasing reader/viewership. It's been said so many times that I'm loathe to repeat it, but sex sells -- just not to those of us who find it unnecessary.

I'm far more lenient with swearing (a consequence, I think, of growing up in a big city with a wide demographic.) Oddly, I never swear in real life, when I am speaking as myself. On the other hand, I will swear in my writing if it is character appropriate, though I still shy away from heavier words. Characters tend to take on lives of their own, and when they're going to say something, they have a particular way they're going to say it, and I try to let them. But excessive swearing, even in spite of when I would hear it every other word on the public buses, sounds uneducated and overdone. Sometimes I understand -- I've known people who actually talk like that, shockingly enough, but often it comes across as the author trying too hard to sound edgy.

...And I best stop now before this becomes a full-length essay. Thanks for letting me say my piece; this is an intriguing topic and I love reading people's responses.

I think that beyond just the editorial market, people are putting their names on their original work. Fanfiction is often anonymous; can be produced and consumed facelessly if one so desires. Like so: Note, I am anonymous! (Ostensibly, because I have no LiveJournal, but the point remains.) Nobody has any idea who I am! The walls that define acceptable behavior are considerably relaxed; my actions have no reflection on me, personally.

Excellent point, although there is a flip side to this for those fanficcers looking to become published writers. There have been published writers who, because they also write fanfic, have been hounded for it (I have no idea why). There's one author in the SGA fandom who's a published author who uses a lot of various names for her stories (Ex. one name for gen sotries, another for slash stories.) But that's just published authors who do need to be careful now that they're pretty much a "brand name" so to speak.

And, honestly, I've stumbled into smut scenes enough to know that eventually they all sound exactly alike, and, frankly, are boring. I have read one well-written sex scene, but it wasn't just about the act itself; it said deeper things about the characters in a way that's hard to describe. Simply put, it wasn't focused on being just pornographic; it served a purpose.

This is part of what spurned my cuiosity. As I told Friendshipper, I'm a fan of setting limits and "less is more" - A: for personal reasons and B: for the sake of the story. There are things I want to do in my own stories, but if it doesn't progress the plot, or ends up squicking too much of my audience, then I either won't put it in or I'll cut it down considerably. Even in fanfiction I have limits, because between writing a good story or writing a story that satisfies, I'd rather write a good story. I've written stuff that I look back on an cringe, because I could have done so much better but instead settled on satisfying a certain desire (and thus ended up writing some pretty over-the-top things).

So it got me wondering: to published writers do the same for the same reasons as me? Or are there other motivations behind it. From what has been discussed, the answer is both. Like you said, published writers have a lot more reasons to show restraint.

As a general rule, profanity and sex do not bother me in a story as long as there is a VALID reason for them to be there. If the profanity and sex are simply included gratuitously or in an attempt to, as some people have put it, be "edgy", then I do have a problem with it. Same goes for their excessive usage - there must be a point to it.

I do believe that most writers of works intended for publication will rein in the use of profanity and sex, and use them only moderately when necessary to advance the story, but, even then, not all of them will do so, and that the reason for the moderation is to reach the widest possible audience.

That said, fanfic tends to have warnings about the content of each particular story, while published works do not. Thus, if I don't want to read a slash story about characters that have in the canon of a series have been established as hetero rather than gay, then I have the foreknowledge about the content of the story and can choose not to read it, and generally don't as I find that it detracts from the story itself because of the departure from the established "norm" of the characters.

With published works, however, that is rarely the case. Point in fact, I purchased a book several years ago that was ostensibly about an undercover police investigation, but which turned out to be, at its core, gay porn, and there was absolutely no indication of that anywhere on the book that would have informed me beforehand. I found it really put a damper on the story, and I never did finish reading it although it had been quite well written up to about the halfway point when its actual subject was revealed.

There is, again as previously mentioned, the anonymity of fanfic. The majority, if not all, fanfic authors are ghosts as far as their real identities go, while published authors are usually readily identifiable from the use of their names, photographs on dust covers, in promotional materials, etc.

Then there is the purpose of the two types of stories: a fanfic writer is more likely to write a story of the type that he/she wants to read, regardless of whether anyone else reads it, while a published author is going to try to write stories that other people will want to read.

splitbeak also made a valid point about the use of profanity in everyday language versus its use in fiction. A lot of people use words in their everyday speech that they filter out in their writing. For example, at work I don't swear at co-workers, clients, or people from other firms. I strive to be polite in all circumstances related to my work. However, with close friends and family, we can swear a blue streak at each other and not think twice about it or even really realize we're doing it. So . . . the filtration takes place in the professional setting, but not in the everyday non-professional setting.

Similarly, when listening to people talking, whether on the street or in an interview on tv, I hear a lot of "like" and "you know", etc. It's verbal garbage that they probably don't consciously realize they're saying, but if those same people were to write their responses on paper, the "like" and "you know" would not be there. They would edit their speech patterns to suit the medium and the purpose.

I think it also incorporates ABILITY. Is the author able to communicate what is happening effectively without being overly graphic or having to resort to extraneous material? A very memorable short story I read a long time ago was one by Robert McCammon in, I believe, an anthology called Blue World. The story itself was called Pin and is about a man in lying on a bed in a seedy room and staring at a naked bulb hanging from the ceiling. There is no violence per se, just his thoughts. But what he does while lying on that bed gave me the creeps. Still does when I think about it. McCammon's description of what the man did was very well done and "graphic" in the sense that it felt "real".

In a nutshell, I do believe that published authors will limit themselves in order to reach a specific target audience should the goal require such limitation, but fanfic writers will write what they themselves want to read, and if that means going overboard, then they will do so. For a published author, the whole purpose of writing the story is to sell it to as many people as possible and thereby derive a living from the writing, while a fanfic author has no such pecuniary goal and, therefore, is not constrained in what is written.

cat4444

For a published author, the whole purpose of writing the story is to sell it to as many people as possible and thereby derive a living from the writing, while a fanfic author has no such pecuniary goal and, therefore, is not constrained in what is written.

I do think, though, that after a while that even fanfic writers end up - either consciously or subconsciously - restraining themselves. not everyone, of course, and I'm speaking mostly from personal experience. Feedback is addicting, and I've come to cut back on certain things because it came to my atention that I was actually scaring readers off, and I didn't want to do that. Plus, *shrugs* with some of my stories I was getting a little unrealistic with certain things, and that just makes for bad writing.

But I'm a self-conscious person looking to be a published writer one day, so it was kind of inevtiable that I end up cutting back and taking my audience into consideration. I still write for myself, but I'm more careful about it.

As a general rule, profanity and sex do not bother me in a story as long as there is a VALID reason for them to be there. If the profanity and sex are simply included gratuitously or in an attempt to, as some people have put it, be "edgy", then I do have a problem with it. Same goes for their excessive usage - there must be a point to it.

*Nods* That's my number one rule when it comes to my writing - if it doesn't have a use, don't put it in. It's what led to this discussion topic. I wasn't looking for someone to point out an exact limit as there's no such thing, but I wanted to know if setting limitations is something writers do for the sake of the story or is it simply the product of doing what will sell? Is it something everyone should do? Or does it all simply come down to plot and supply/demand (i.e. the audience)? According to what has been discussed, it seems to be the latter.

I ramble a bit but stick with me. (LOL)

I'm not a writer and my reading the last few years has been severely limited by time allowances ... as in not having much. I've taken to reading fan-fic since I discovered it a year ago and again limited mostly to SGA. (I have not read much original fic 'lately' and try to steer clear of things that squick me but hopefully its okay to throw my opinion out there anyway.)

I don't care for swearing. I don't do it, but if the situation calls for it in a story, I can over-look most words. (As long as it's kept to a minimum.) The F-word is one that is a squick for me though. I don't care for that word at all. There was a good movie that was recommended to me that I could NOT force myself to sit through because the F-word was every other word.

Disclaimers aside, (don't be afraid to tell me I'm way off the mark here, but.......)

IMHO, I think with fan-fic, writers may be more comfortable 'cutting loose' so to speak because the characters are known and loved variables. Some writers may be confident that readers will excuse or over-look it to read about their favorite characters.

With original fic, you have a target audience for the subject matter but not as focused as it would be when writing fan-fic for a particular show. The characters, setting and plots are all unknowns for the reader, therefore a writer may be more reserved. (Not an established emotional relationship to the character prior to opening the book.)

You and several others such as wildcat88 and Kari made some very good points. I believe it's a mix of variables. I know what you are trying to say, I just hope I got across what I'm trying to say, and it doesn't come out all wrong.

I really don't know if this answered your question, or (feel free to roll your eyes) if it's painfully obvious I can't write to save my life. Just my thoughts....

:)

*nods to all of it*

IMHO, I think with fan-fic, writers may be more comfortable 'cutting loose' so to speak because the characters are known and loved variables. Some writers may be confident that readers will excuse or over-look it to read about their favorite characters.

Very true. You pretty much know half of what you're getting into with fanfic, even if you don't agree with the person's view of the characters. With original fic, it's roulette. You're readers are going into a story where the character is a complete stranger, and it's fifty/fifty that they will either love that stranger or hate/dislike them. Since you want your target audience to like them and read the story, then you have to tread carefully.

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