To Whumpers it May Concern

[kriadydragon]

When aiming for angsty, dramatic whumpage, might I suggest you avoid methods such as spanking and/or knees to the groin if you want your readers to feel bad for the subject of the whump, rather than snickering behind their hands. I'm not saying that spankings and groin-bashing aren't serious forms of whump. What I'm saying is that they are forms of whump that are rather hard to take seriously. If humor is, in fact, the aim then go for it. If not, then you might want to replan your entire whumping strategy.

Think before you whump.

Thank you and good night... or afternoon, evening, whatever.

Edited to add: So is it impossible to write spankings and groin-bashing as something serious? Nothing is impossible and even getting whacked in the butt can have dire consequences that make it a heck of a lot less funny. But I would proceed with caution.

Comments

[kristen999.livejournal.com]

I understand spanking. The tone or emotional reaction to a physical attack depends greatly on how it is written and if it’s taken seriously. I admit such forms of attack can be read unintentionally humorous. But a knee or kick to the groin is an extremely painful experience and depending how hard, can permanently injure a person, cause them to pass out, or even die in some instances.

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

"But a knee or kick to the groin is an extremely painful experience and depending how hard, can permanently injure a person, cause them to pass out, or even die in some instances."

Very true. For the one receiving the injury, heck yeah it's serious. But it's also been used for so long as a means of humor that it's become rather tainted. It works, I think, as side-whump - that is, not the main means of whump, simply a means to debilitate without the author dwelling on it. However, I've read stories where it was the main method of whump meant to be taken seriously, and it was kind of hard to, because I kept expecting someone to make a crack about "not shooting straight" or singing an octave higher. It was just really weird to see such a solemn reaction to it when normally it's either one injury out of many or a joke.

As I said in my post, it's not that these forms of whump aren't or can't be serious, but that they're hard to take seriously at times. Not to say it isn't possible, just that it would be tricky, and you would have to tread carefully (for example, I can see it starting out as funny, but then ending up being serious. But to see it taken so seriously from the start is rather strange to me).

[kristen999.livejournal.com]

I guess its up to your own experiences. I accidentally kicked my husband there when we were play fighting once, and he was really sick for hours, so it was no laughing matter. He also loves to watch MMA fighting and you can be disqualified for those types of kicks because it is so decapitating. But, I see where you are coming from. Culturally it’s been used as a form of humor or joke, ignoring the real pain associated with it.

As far as main, whump? Meh, it would be a tough pill to swallow, but I think as a form pf physical injury it shouldn't be brushed aside. You reaction has been helpful to read, however, and one I'll keep in mind as I have a scene planned out for such an injury, although not to be considered the main part of any attack, but it was/will be part of a fairly serious scene . I will be very mindful how it is written so it will be taken seriously since it has been so tainted in the film/books.

So, food for thought :D

[sholio]

I actually think that it would be good to see more portrayals of genital and testicular injury that treat it as something serious -- it's been a joke for so long that I'm not sure if many people realize how debilitating and devastating it can be. (Not pointing fingers at you, kriadydragon! But I think it's a useful thing to bring up, that it is generally seen as humorous -- when in reality is anything but -- and that a writer has to take that into account when they write it.)

I think it does depend hugely on how it's written, though. There is a scene in the book Casino Royale -- I haven't seen the movie, so I don't know if this scene is in the movie -- in which Bond is tortured via genital torture, and it's horrible; it's neither titillating nor funny, and in fact was a very difficult scene to read, and probably for the author to write.

The language that is used and the way it's described probably makes a big difference ... "Crushed and mangled testicles" sounds far, far worse than "kicked in the groin" even though basically it's the same process.

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

Like I said to Kristen in my reply below, I've always found it odd that it's treated so lightly when it's obviously so painful. But because of it's light treatment, though I don't find it funny neither do I have an easy time seeing it as serious - at least in fanfic. I've yet to read a published story that dealt with it seriously.

"The language that is used and the way it's described probably makes a big difference"

Definitely. That makes up the other half of why I have a hard time with a story that wants to make that type of injury serious. I know what the author is trying to do, but I'm still waiting for the comedic shoe to drop since it's what I'm used to and because the method of writing wasn't enough to convince my brain to think otherwise.

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

I've always found it odd that it's portrayed more often than not as such a joke, since it is obviously so painful (and dangerous, apparently).

"So, food for thought :D"

Definitely, because now I'm wondering "Okay, so how would I keep readers from viewing this particular method of whump as something to be laughed at?" As one whump method out of many I think it stands more of a chance, but I personally feel it too tainted by all the light treatment for it to work as serious focus whump. I could be wrong, I don't know. I just know it doesn't work for me.

[tridget.livejournal.com]

I was practicing for a karate demonstration once. I was paired with an energetic young man who worked out a lot and he figured he had abs of steel. He wanted our demo to be "realistic" and insisted I roundhouse kick him in the stomach with more force. I had good form and speed but maybe not so much force. So, I really focused on that. Well, I pulled it off with considerable force during the last rehearsal. Unfortunately, I lost my focus on other aspects of the maneuver and my kick came in several inches lower than intended. Unfortunately, Mr. Abs-of-Steel had not seen fit to wear a jock. He went down like a ton of bricks and eventually had to be carried out. It can indeed be a very serious injury.

I'm pretty sure I would not see it as humorous in a story unless there was a really comical context. Even then...Ouch!

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

I've always considered it (in movies/books) good retribution against the bad guys but never actually found it funny. But it's portrayed as supposed-to-be-funny so much that there's a part of me that expects an attempt at humor when it does happen (in media, not in real life). All the more so when it's the focus-whump. It's conditioning: you don't have to find it funny, but you don't really expect it to ever be portrayed as serious, and it's either a surprise when it is or just seems really weird.

[coolbreeze1.livejournal.com]

I don't think I've read a lot of stories that involved a kick to the groin (didn't Teyla do this to Ronon in Submersion? I vaguely recall her kneeing him to get the jump on him), but I'm having a hard time imagining a scenario where this would be comical (I'm sure there are stories out there like this, I just haven't come across them). I do know a kick or knee to the groin is a very effective self-defense technique, and it's taught as such (particularly in the few women's self-defense courses I've taken). If it was written into the story in the context of a fight, it seems like a hit in an opponent (who's trying to kill you)'s groin would be entirely appropriate.

I knocked a guy out once this way. Not on purpose, mind you. I was playing softball and was the pitcher. The ball took a funny bounce off the plate, bounced under the catcher, and hit the umpire in the groin (he was even wearing a cup). I was horrified, and he was out cold for almost fifteen minutes. I don't think anyone who's seen how horribly painful this type of injury can be would think it's funny. I agree with what most of the others (including you) have said, though - it's all in how you write it. If the writer takes the injury seriously, then good readers will take it seriously as well.

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

"but I'm having a hard time imagining a scenario where this would be comical"

As I've said, it's not that it is funny, but that the media has portrayed it as something that's not supposed to be taken seriously. I've read stories and seen movies with knee-groin action, and the aim of the scenario has always been toward the comical. A guy goes down, maybe talks high-pitched for a while and moves on. You don't really ever see the true extent of the damage because the story/show/movie in question either wants to move on or wants viewers/readers to laugh.

For that reason, it's become a difficult scenario to take seriously when writers do try to make it serious. Again, it's not that it's actually funny, but that there's a certain expectation, in that you don't really expect the writer, or characters, to actually take it seriously since it's always been treated as anything but serious. As I've said above, it's conditioning.

Granted, though, not everyone sees it that way. Like you, some may not have come across it, or rarely came across it, used in a comedic situation. I have. A lot (I blame America's Funniest Home Videos :P). So have others, and many do think it's funny for that reason. Like I said in my post, it's not impossible to write it as serious focus-whump, but, yes, it's going to take careful wording and execution to let readers know that this does need to be taken seriously. And until it can be written in a way that will help your readers in taking it seriously, it's probably better off being used as side-whump rather than focus whump.

[parisindy.livejournal.com]

*claps and snickers*
could agree more :)

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

I swear people are getting really weird about whumping. I mean, I can understand going for a kick to the groin, but a caning in the butt? Isn't that usually porn fodder :P

[parisindy.livejournal.com]

amen.. the porn invades everything and frankly its just not good story telling.

i've been looking for a decent merlin story that isn't slash or ship for months!

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

The particular "caning" in question wasn't even porn. It was just your average, everyday whump story. But the fact that Sheppard was pretty much being "spanked" (with his pants still on) and the writer seemed to be trying to pass the moment off as dark and angsty was just too odd for words.

Maybe I'm just used to Sheppard getting caned on the back? I don't know.

Slash has really been driving me crazy. It's not so much the prevalence of fic but the way many people seem to be pushing their favorite pairings (namely McShep) as irrefutable fact. It actually kind of makes me glad the show is over, as I was getting really tired of slash-tainted episode reviews :P

[parisindy.livejournal.com]

i don't know the story you are talking about but really it sounds like is alluding to slash isn't it?

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

*Shrugs* I don't know. To me it came across as the author attempting to be different. For example, they've read so many stories in which Sheppard is whipped on the back, they decide to whip him someplace else, just to be different.

I think, for some people, any whump is good whump as long as it brings pain. I'm a lot pickier than that, myself. Hits to the groin I don't consider to be good whump. As one whump in a mess of whump, okay, but not as the main form of whump. For one, as I keep telling everyone, the media has tainted it too much. I don't think it's funny, but I keep expecting it to be treated in a humorous way, because that's how it's mostly treated. "Spankings" really don't work as they're even more tainted than hits to the groin.

Both methods cause pain, yes, but to me they're cheap forms of whump. I don't find them funny, but neither am I able to take them seriously and it ends up throwing me right out of the story.

[parisindy.livejournal.com]

i honestly don't think either would do it for me either

[(Anonymous)]

I don't think there's anything wrong with either of those forms of whump if they are written well and in the right context. Spanking, especially to someone like John Sheppard, would be pretty humiliating. Treating him, a grown man, like a naughty schoolboy would drive him crazy!

Kicks to the groin aren't funny at all, as many here have said. Just because it's been used for humor before does mean writers can't include it for dramatic effect, too. The idea of laughing at someone who is hurt this way if it's part of a dramatic scene is pretty odd to me - do you think readers are that immature?

Lets face it, fanfic writers can write what they like - none of us have the right to tell anyone how to write their stories because it's something they do for fun. We all have the choice not to read if we don't think it is executed well. That's the joy of free-will; it works for readers and writers.

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

I'll be brutally honest, I'm all for people writing whatever they want and whatever floats their boat, but I'm more for people writing it well. In fact, I was just thinking how one might go about writing "spanking" in a way that doesn't immediately conjure images of naughty school/frat boys and "please, sir, can I have another!" I won't go into details of what I came up with, but, yes, it is possible but it takes careful thinking (which is what I mean by "think before you whump.")

No, I don't think people that immature. As I've already stated in the above replies, I've never found it funny and the people who have responded don't find it funny. I doubt the vast majority of the world finds it funny. But because of how it's been dealt with over the years in the media, there's a certain taint to it (because, yes, I do believe that the media has influence. Not necessarily intentionally, but it does). And for that reason, it's made both methods of whump a tricky matter to write. Again, I go back to "think before you whump," because a lot of people really don't. Just look at how rape tends to be treated in fanfic (I have only come across one story that ever treated rape as the trauma it is, and not as a means to satisfy a certain kink). People can be rather quick about rushing into a whump scenario without giving it thought, thus creating something either unbelievable, funny when it wasn't meant to be funny, or disrespectful.

I'm not trying to tell people how to write (and I do apologize if that's how it came across, which, yeah, does. I was rather frustrated at the time I wrote this). I'm trying to get people to think. Because you can have your cake and it eat to. i.e. you can write anything you want, satisfy any kink you want, but still be able to do it well and in a way that satisfies both you as the writer and your readers.

Child buttock-slapping/battering vs. DISCIPLINE:

[(Anonymous)]

Child buttock-slapping/battering vs. DISCIPLINE:

Child buttock-battering (euphemistically labeled "spanking","swatting","switching","smacking", "paddling",or other cute-sounding names) for the purpose of gaining compliance is nothing more than an inherited bad habit.

Its a good idea for people to take a look at what they are doing, and learn how to DISCIPLINE instead of hit.

I think the reason why television shows like "Supernanny" and "Dr. Phil" are so popular is because that is precisely what many (not all) people are trying to do.

There are several reasons why child bottom-slapping isn't a good idea. Here are some good, quick reads recommended by professionals:

Plain Talk About Spanking
by Jordan Riak,

The Sexual Dangers of Spanking Children
by Tom Johnson,

NO VITAL ORGANS THERE, So They Say
by Lesli Taylor M.D. and Adah Maurer Ph.D.

Most compelling of all reasons to abandon this worst of all bad habits is the fact that buttock-battering can be unintentional sexual abuse for some children. There is an abundance of educational resources, testimony, documentation, etc available on the subject that can easily be found by doing a little research with the recommended reads-visit the website of Parents and Teachers Against Violence In Education at www.nospank.net.

Just a handful of those helping to raise awareness of why child bottom-slapping isn't a good idea:

American Academy of Pediatrics,
American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry,
American Psychological Association,
Center For Effective Discipline,
Churches' Network For Non-Violence,
Nobel Peace Prize recipient Archbishop Desmond Tutu,
Parenting In Jesus' Footsteps,
Global Initiative To End All Corporal Punishment of Children,
United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child.

In 26 countries, child corporal punishment is prohibited by law (with more in process). In fact, the US was the only UN member that did not ratify the Convention on the Rights of the Child.

[patk.livejournal.com]

I'm way behind my LJ-reading and so I've read this entry (including comments) as well as your addendum just now. It's late for a response but I find the discussion very interesting because, yes, I can see where you come from and yes, I can also remember reading stories that had this kind of whump but didn't trigger this "expecting humor"-reaction. It sure takes a skillful author to prevent this effect and I guess it also depends heavily on context and the situation at hand.

As far as I can still remember, in addition to using different words like Friendshipper suggested, one thing that contributed strongly to avoiding the undesired "humorous" effect was using the POV of the injured party, the one who got hit/kicked in the groin or was beaten with a cane on his/her backside. Getting in the head of the victim that has to suffer through it, really helps. From *their* POV the whole thing loses a lot of its funny potential for the reader.

Another scene I can vaguely remember used the POV of a person who had to watch the whole thing and their observations did not concentrate on the act itself but the focus was on the observable effect it had on the victim which actually quenched the forthcoming comical effect. Kind of a "at first you think it's funny but then you see his complexion pale, see him squeeze his eyes shut, sweat breaking out on his skin (etc.) and you realize that this is anything but funny"-effect.

The thing bot POVs had in common was, that the focus wasn't so much on the action itself but on the hurt/feelings/reaction of the victim.

Perhaps it's really more a question of how to write those particular whumps than whether to use them at all. :-)

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

I've kind of given up on this post since I wasn't able to quite get across what I was trying to get across. I ended up getting frustrated, almost to the point of wanting to delete the post, but didn't since many good points were brought up.