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Has anyone else been coming across what seems to be an influx of reviews denouncing Sheppard as a genius? Anyone else bothered by it?
It's not that I think these reviewers are wrong. Most, in fact, have a point about Sheppard being a closet math genius. I think John is smart, good at math, but definitely not on McKay's level. I also doubt he would hide his genius, especially when such genius would come in handy during an emergency (and no way would Sheppard hold it in if it meant saving others).
Still, I find it odd that this particular trope is being so heavily attacked. I mean, what about "Sheppard-the-womanizer/will sleep with anyone" trope? Or "Sheppard-hides-injuries-for-no-reason" trope? There's a lot of fanon cliches out there that don't make sense according to canon. But why is "Sheppard-the-genius" in particular being attacked?
*Shrugs* Genius Sheppard has never been my thing. However, I do love smart/clever Sheppard. Which I'm wondering if this is why it's bothering me so much that genius-Sheppard is under attack. I kind of feel smart/clever Sheppard a rarity (in that it's written, of course, but written rarely. Mostly because Sheppard is so whumped he can't really think his way out of the situation :P). And because genius-Sheppard is being attacked, there's a part of me that worries it will discourage people from writing smart-Sheppard (even though, in a way, they are two different things. Sheppard's intelligence manifests in ideas and survival skills with a touch of science/math on the side, not in science and math).
It's not that I think these reviewers are wrong. Most, in fact, have a point about Sheppard being a closet math genius. I think John is smart, good at math, but definitely not on McKay's level. I also doubt he would hide his genius, especially when such genius would come in handy during an emergency (and no way would Sheppard hold it in if it meant saving others).
Still, I find it odd that this particular trope is being so heavily attacked. I mean, what about "Sheppard-the-womanizer/will sleep with anyone" trope? Or "Sheppard-hides-injuries-for-no-reason" trope? There's a lot of fanon cliches out there that don't make sense according to canon. But why is "Sheppard-the-genius" in particular being attacked?
*Shrugs* Genius Sheppard has never been my thing. However, I do love smart/clever Sheppard. Which I'm wondering if this is why it's bothering me so much that genius-Sheppard is under attack. I kind of feel smart/clever Sheppard a rarity (in that it's written, of course, but written rarely. Mostly because Sheppard is so whumped he can't really think his way out of the situation :P). And because genius-Sheppard is being attacked, there's a part of me that worries it will discourage people from writing smart-Sheppard (even though, in a way, they are two different things. Sheppard's intelligence manifests in ideas and survival skills with a touch of science/math on the side, not in science and math).
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Date: 2010-01-19 02:41 am (UTC)From:but at the same time they don't need to be geniuses either to carry out their duties.
That is NOT what the military is looking for because sometimes that person lacks common sense. They want a well rounded individual. And for those that doubt his intellect compared to McKay, he
took the Mensa exam and apparently did well, much to the shock of
McKay, but unlike McKay he sees no reason to flaunt it.
I fail to see why anyone would knock Sheppard about because he is not on the same level as McKay.
He never claimed to be.
They NEED to get over it and move on to other areas to whine about.
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Date: 2010-01-19 03:10 am (UTC)From:I don't agree with some that he's average smart. I do think he's above average. For one, as you have said, pilots need to be smart, really smart. For another, he may not be on McKay's level, but he understands enough at times to get the gist of what McKay is trying to say. Not all the time, but more so than, say, Jack when Carter starts talking science.
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Date: 2010-01-19 03:20 am (UTC)From:stand on in their accusation.
As I said before, they ought to get over it and find some other
direction for their whining.
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Date: 2010-01-19 03:25 am (UTC)From:I think Sheppard is definitely on the left side of the bell curve, high percentile smart, not genius, but up there. AS far as math skills go, his may be concentrated in a couple areas like problem solving, combinatorial, and spatial relations (all of which heavily feature on the Mensa exam).
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Date: 2010-01-19 03:42 am (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 2010-01-19 04:07 am (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 2010-01-19 04:18 am (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 2010-01-19 04:25 am (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 2010-01-19 05:07 am (UTC)From:It annoyed me GREATLY in the latter seasons when they downplayed his smarts.
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Date: 2010-01-19 05:29 am (UTC)From:Sheppard was pretty much downplayed all together in later seasons. It's like the writers didn't know what to do with him... or didn't want to write his character any more :P
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Date: 2010-01-19 05:51 am (UTC)From:Sheesh.
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Date: 2010-01-19 05:53 am (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 2010-01-19 05:28 am (UTC)From:I think he just doesn't make a big deal about, except occasionally to keep McKay from getting out of hand (Rising, The Game, to name a few...)
However, personally I kind of feel like I've seen a lot of these different trope's making more noise lately. (along with an influx of "YOU DID IT WRONG!" story reviews.. ;) ) so not sure who's poking hornet's nests lately but yeah, lots of vocalizing going on. ;)
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Date: 2010-01-19 05:40 am (UTC)From:Exactly. The guy is above-average smart. Not genius, but still smart. And he doesn't hide it, he just doesn't advertise it, but we know it's there.
I wonder if the vocalizing is because we've all become set in our views of the show and characters - some more than others. I've been more vocal about things myself (as seen in my journal as of late :P) I find it odd, though, that it's this one particular trope being attacked and so vehemently even though it's canon that Sheppard is pretty dang smart. Again, maybe not a genius, but still smart.
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Date: 2010-01-19 06:41 am (UTC)From:Dunno. I've always thought that fandom is big enough for everyone, do what you want (I just stay away from stuff I don't like or agree with).
Odd though. Maybe without the show around, people are becoming more set in what they believe to be "Right" or "Wrong"?
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Date: 2010-01-19 07:28 am (UTC)From:It's definitely canon that he's very sharp and quick-thinking, though; I love the bit in "Lost Tribe" (I think that's the episode) where the scene cuts back and forth between Sheppard and McKay figuring out the enemy plan at about the same speed. He's often the one who comes up with the plans, and there are also several episodes where he's quick at figuring numbers in his head, but not like some kind of virtuoso. He's really smart! Just not someone who invents new forms of math in his spare time. He's got other, more important things to do with his time; sheesh.
(I also react similarly to people who write McKay as a musical genius based on that one scene in "Redemption" -- my god, people, I love McKay, but just because he knew how to play the piano 25 years ago doesn't mean he can even do it anymore, let alone that he has some kind of rare talent for it!)
Fandom doesn't seem to handle characters being only a little bit good at something; they've got to be either incompetent or a supergenius.
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Date: 2010-01-19 09:35 pm (UTC)From:Yes, this is why it bugs me when writers try to give a character all kinds of super talents, but bugs me more when it's a talent that, really, should belong to another character (Rodney being good at riding horses, for example. I know it isn't stated out-right in canon that Sheppard dealt with horses, but there's implication enough to go with it, while there's nothing to implicate that Rodney had anything to with horses). It's also why I'm not really a big fan of super-genius Sheppard, because genius is Rodney's thing, and though I think Sheppard is pretty dang smart, he isn't McKay-level smarts.
Though I still find it odd that this one trope in particular is being so attacked. I mean, I can understand it to an extent because, yeah, after a while it gets annoying (I'm not as tolerant of sentient Atlantis as I used to be, for example, though I'll still read stories that may include it), but there's quite a bit of vehemence with some of the reviews, and some of the stories didn't out-right say that Sheppard was a genius, nor portrayed him acting all genius-like (such as Titan5's story mentioned below, and another that clearly stated it was an AU) but the writers were still called on it.
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Date: 2010-01-24 01:45 pm (UTC)From:I'm surprised you put these together (yes, pulling out of context here, sorry!), seeing as you've spent a lot of time around PhD students and PhD programs, IIRC.
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Date: 2010-01-24 07:46 pm (UTC)From:But I tried to compress it down to a single phrase to express a complex concept, and pretty much failed at that. *g*
I certainly don't think you have to be a genius to get a PhD! Or that John couldn't, as someone said elsewhere, which is just a ridiculous criticism to make.
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Date: 2010-01-25 11:27 am (UTC)From:Now I'm curious if these stories would sniff out as improbable to me!
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Date: 2010-01-25 09:42 pm (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 2010-01-19 08:07 am (UTC)From:Second, in the show they had him show off his math skills a few times. It was stated to me that that meant nothing other than he could do some quick calculations in his head. I read early on that he was a closet math genius, but it seems they never really followed up on that particular storyline. Still, I think the possibiliby of him being at least "above average" was firmly established. I couldn't do that math in my head that quickly and while I only have a Master's, I'm pretty sure I could have done the PhD route if I'd had the money at the time.
Third, how many times did Rodney or Radek start explaining something only to have John shock them by filling in part of it, indicating he understood what they were talking about. Once again, evidence that he is smarter than they expected.
Once again, I think it was evidenced that he is smarter than average and definitely smart enough to have earned a PhD if he had chosen to go that route. Look at all the times HE was the one to figure out a plan to save them. For someone to protest him being extremely smart, and possibly even at the low end of the genius scale, is just refusing to acknowledge what the show set up, either through a dislike of the character or a need to drag down someone's story for whatever reason.
And I have no idea why some things are attacked and not others. I can read stories that have spelling error after spelling error, grammar that is atrocious, and characters doing things so off that you wonder if the author has ever seen a whole show. The reviews will all go on and on about how wonderful it is. I mispell one word or make one error or have John be smart, and I get scolded all over the place. Not that I don't make mistakes, because I do. I just wonder why some authors are selected for intense scrutiny (not just me) and others are not.
Okay, I'm finished whining now. But I stand by my position that it is canon for John Sheppard to be smart enough to have earned a PhD if he had chosen to.
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Date: 2010-01-19 09:52 pm (UTC)From:So it boggled me that you were called on it the way you were. To me, it felt more like the reviewer was... not looking for a fight... but looking to call someone on that particular trope and your story was a convenient target.
Plus canon/fanon aside, as much as the fanon cliches bug me to no end, people are entitled to write what they want. I hate Woobie-McKay Trinity tags with a passion, will rant about them until I'm blue in the face on my journal. But no way will I take said rant to a person's story. I'm not afraid to state an opinion in my reviews, but I try to be careful about it, because with some stories it's a matter of eye-of-the-beholder and other stories are all about satisfying a certain kink (and who am I to harp on the latter ;))
"The reviews will all go on and on about how wonderful it is. I mispell one word or make one error or have John be smart, and I get scolded all over the place. Not that I don't make mistakes, because I do. I just wonder why some authors are selected for intense scrutiny (not just me) and others are not."
Oi, this drives me crazy (and is the reason I know we both disabled anonymous reviews). I've read some poorly spelled stories, yet I'm the one who gets the lecture on the difference between their, there and they're.
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Date: 2010-01-25 11:29 am (UTC)From:Could this be the Rodney's-an-extra-special-snowflake phenomena? So nobody else can be smart at all?
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Date: 2010-01-19 02:45 pm (UTC)From:One thing I have never quite understood is why many writers feel that a taking and perhaps passing a Mensa entry test = Genius. Seriously you don't have to be a "genius" to take and pass the Mensa entry exam. I know, my brother took it and passed, was asked to join (he turned them down for being too boring). All you need for Mensa is an above average IQ and an ability to problem solve mathematically (Incidentally my brother went on to do a degree in computer science and could have done his Masters and PhD if he had not gotten bored with academia. He’s not a genius he is just very smart). I personally didn’t pass high enough on the test because I didn’t try hard enough. I just can’t be bothered with maths. I find it mind numbingly boring on an epic level unless it is practically applied..
I have to say though; from my POV of the canon universe I haven't seen anything that would equate Sheppard to have maths skills in what I would describe as "genius level" (at least nothing on a level with say Charlie in Numbers - who is a maths genius). John is extremely smart and very quick. He exhibits mannerisms that I would say indicate an above average IQ, high intelligence and practical problem solving. He also has a wide base of experience from his life which allows him to make sound deductions based of what he knows and what evidence he has around. Seriously if you are smart yourself and hang around with smart people doing smart things then you pick up information which you can then utilise
One of the reasons I feel that both Rodney and Zelenka are surprised that he does it is because they work from personal stereotypes of the military that Military = Stupid grunt. Rather than the idea that Pilot = person who is able to do some maths, often able to understand certain areas of physics and engineering and such especially when applied to a practical situation. Or Black ops trained military person = person able to think outside the box, trained to make split second decisions, often able to pick up multiple languages, utilise equipment and resources available at any given moment. Etc..etc.. There is also teh aspect that Sheppard is very quiet about his intelligence and understanding which is at odds with the rampant "I know more than you" egotism of academia, basically if you don't state you are a genius (or similar) every other sentence people forget that you are a genius:D.. and so are surprised when you get to the conclusion before they do. :D
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Date: 2010-01-24 01:41 pm (UTC)From:Yes, this. I do think John could get a PhD in math (or anything else) if he felt like it, but I think most people who scan as reasonably bright could.
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Date: 2010-01-19 10:52 pm (UTC)From:I think with fanning, there's a temptation to make characters either a little or a lot more than they are. With the "closet" genius/smart thing you have Sheppard both brilliant but humble/ashamed of it. Which, yeah, doesn't make sense since he uses his smarts quite often. I think, for him, it's just something that is, something that's useful, but nothing spectacular either. He doesn't hide it, not when it's so useful, but neither does he flaunt it because he's not that kind of guy.
Then there's the other end of the spectrum, where Sheppard is naive, incompetent, and every idea he comes up with is idiotic. Though this tends to be a bit more tongue-in-cheek.
I think some writers don't quite understand what the Mensa test entails. I didn't. Which I think is what most of the reviewers are trying to correct - that just because Sheppard past the test, it doesn't mean he's a genius on McKay's level. Which I understand, but I also feel that some are going a little overboard with the corrections. As discussed above, Titan5's story didn't push the genius trope, but she was still called out on it. And I would hate to see it reach a level where people can't even write smart Sheppard without being attacked for it (which I doubt it'll come to that, but you never know *shrugs*).
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Date: 2010-01-24 01:40 pm (UTC)From:So then it comes to, how do they do in new situations, making sense of all sorts of things very quickly? Well, they both do excellently, but not as well as Beckett, who went and redesigned genetic engineering over the course of a few seasons. It's the darn compression of competence that TV requires: McKay figures out an ancient system in the time it would take any actual human to figure out where to put her coffee mug, and it's not just McKay, it's most of the SGC (which may be why I like SGU so much - they're still trying to figure out the coffee maker.)
As to how smart they seem - McKay has his "I'm a genius" thing going, but I know a handful of mathy people whom he outnormals. I also know, um, dozens of people whose childhood or late adolescent test scores put them in the 0.1% or above, many of whom have PhDs, and not a one of them shares this info randomly. And most of the characters on SGA (including Ronon and Dr. Lee) seem as bright as any of them.
So.... just really flailing a bit here, but I've also noticed the anti-genius-Sheppard comments, and been wondering what it's all about. I absolutely think he could get a math PhD if he felt like it; might even have one. I'm not sure what good mentioning it would have done; "Help, there's this theorem coming at us!! Is there a mathematician on the bridge?"
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Date: 2010-01-25 07:59 pm (UTC)From:Hee-hee! I loved that :D Those math theorems, they can be quite sneaky ;)
That's something else that's always bugged me about the anti-genius-Sheppard comments - how black and white they are about it. Either Sheppard is a genius or he isn't. They acknowledge that he's smart but seem to infer that it's impossible for him to be a genius. But, like you said, what is genius? Is it knowledge? Is it a capacity to have a lot of knowledge? Is it an IQ number? For all we know, Sheppard does have the capacity to get a Ph.d in whatever he wants.
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Date: 2010-01-26 02:30 am (UTC)From:OTOH, I am really, really beyond horrible at picking up languages; don't get poetry; and can't draw; so when a character evidences talent in these areas, even in canon, I get eye-rolly.
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Date: 2010-02-12 03:40 am (UTC)From:Doesn't mean that he could or should be on the same level as an astrophysicist who has devoted his life to the field, but that hardly makes Sheppard dumb, and it's canon that he makes use of his aptitude where relevant.
I find that in many stories (not just SGA, but anywhere above average intelligence characters are involved) there seems to be a lot of weird ideas about what constitutes genius, or just above average bright, and more than anything a lot of confusion about how this relates to one's ability to earn a Phd (there isn't necessarily that strong a correlation in my experience), do maths, get into MENSA or speak multiple languages.
Maybe I spent too much time in academia, but genius does not a Phd earn, hard work does. When all is said and done, a Phd is a professional qualification for those going into academia or similar areas of employment that require the magical title "Dr", not a certificate of IQ level or a badge of honour granted to all "geniuses". I should know, I'm the daughter of a double Phd...:-)