Untitled Part Deux

[kriadydragon]

A kind of sequel to this post.

I'm sometimes boggled by what seems to be a reluctance on some whumpers' part to go into any kind of detail over an injury, most especially it's location. That is, they'll say a character is injured - often refer to "the injury" or "the wound," go into details about the pain and make mention of the blood (if there is any) - but it feels like forever before they tell us where the injury is (I'm thinking the arm, and several paragraphs or chapters later, we finally learn it's the chest, or stomach, or leg). In some cases, we're never even told where the character is injured (yes, I have read stories where that's happened).

Maybe it's just me being a detail junky, but I like knowing as much as possible about a character's injury, most especially it's location. The location doesn't have to be precise - that is, I don't need to know that it's exactly five inches below the nipple or anything like that. Nor do I need it spelled out in precise medical terms. But I don't appreciate vagueness as it makes it hard to form an image of the situation in my mind. I especially hate having to readjust to what I'm reading because I assumed an injury was in one place only to have it located somewhere else.

Edit for major case in point: So I'm reading this story in which the character was shot in the back, but we're never told where in the back. The bullet lodged in the bone, but we're never told which bone. Why does it matter? Because if it's the backbone then the character won't be able to move his legs, and the other characters involved - most especially the doctor - should be rather concerned about that. If it's the shoulder blade (and so far I'm assuming it is since no one is worrying over the character ever walking again) then he'll have issues with his arm. Why the author couldn't have just said where the bullet was located beyond "back" is beyond me.

Comments

[black-raven135.livejournal.com]

I am not only going to cheer you on in your quest for accuracy but ask for some realism in what happens once there is rescue and I will cite here Sheppard e.g.
1) if his injury is serious enough, he cannot be expected to just hop up and head off with his team thru the gate or into a jumper
2) back on Atlantis the injuries cannot be glossed over and soon the team has whipped on some new BDUs, adjusted their P-90s with new clips, for another off world adventure.
I see the above too often.
A good example of #2.. 'Search and Rescue' in the ridiculous scene in the triage bay aboard the Daedalus. Keller is digging around in Sheppard's side where he sustained a serious injury from being impaled by part of the beam on the site that imploded. Sheppard is fully dressed in dirty BDUs he was wearing when the injury occurred. This was just unbelievable to me. I am sure some would say, 'oh he would not allow them to strip him of his uniform and boots.' Sorry that doesn't hold water either.
It is simply not realistic.

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

Heh, what I think is funny is that in M7 fanfic, people will find any opportunity to describe the characters' eyes and facial features, yet seem to gloss over the injuries except for the pain.

I already mentioned to you once that vagueness is one of the reasons I don't like gut wounds (plus that lower abdominal wounds squick me for some unknown reason). People say side then belly then stomach and I have no idea where the dang injury is, and it drives me crazy. But I once read a story in which the character was hit in the stomach, as in the organ itself, and it was interesting because the author didn't just place the injury there but explored the consequences of having a bullet in the stomach as well (vomiting blood and unable to eat for a while). It made for a most satisfying whump.

[black-raven135.livejournal.com]

People say side then belly then stomach and I have no idea where the dang injury is

In the Search and Rescue sequence he is impaled along his right side........from where Ronon looks at the area and then later Keller is digging around it was side not abdominal cavity etc.........
It is just ridiculous........somebody actually told me that the reason why we see Sheppard totally dressed no matter is because the set was cold.
If they whump someone in that much trauma then it needs more accurate
identifying.
In that story I was telling you about, it is specific where the injury is located and how bad.

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

Actually I can buy the cold thing. You often see behind-the-scenes shots during rehearsals and such where Joe is either in a heavy coat or a blanket. The guy gets cold easy. But, still, he was shirtless for that scene in The Lost Tribe. Or they could have put him in a scrub shirt or gown.

[crashbarrier.livejournal.com]

I can completely understand the whole abdominal injuries thing.. its quite complicated in there and has a massive potential for things to go very wrong very quickly. Which is why adbo injuries on tv are always a pet peev of mine.. they are never right:D

As for Covered Sheppard.. I can get that. When your sitting around for 14 hours doing a "naked" scene in what is effectively a hanger/warehouse Canada with little or no heating then its not fun.. and IIRC JF is naturally from a warmer climate so hitting Canadian weather must be a bit of a shock to the system (I am from the north of the UK and i know what its like for the people form further south coming north is like - i am in t-shirt then are in polo neck jumpers:)). Which would explain the lack of Topless scenes:D:D:D

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

I don't think I would mind ab wounds - well, upper ab wounds - so much if there was a bit more detail. I've read stories where gut wounds didn't bother me because I knew the exact location (in the side under the ribs, or in the side above the hip, so that my mind didn't keep moving the location of the injury around).

Poor Joe. I wonder if you looked close enough you might see goosebumps on his arms ;) But it was after I saw all those images of Joe in a coat or a blanket (and also the fact that it wasn't often when he wore a T-shirt on Atlantis. He did, of course, but mostly he was either in a jacket or dressed in layers) that I came to realize why he was never shirtless except for twice.

[black-raven135.livejournal.com]

Exactly, that is all I am asking for..........some realism.
He wore scrubs in other episodes for the infirmary aboard Atlantis
so in this instance it would make sense.......but instead he is in his
boots and BDU.........which medical staff aboard the Daedalus would never
permit despite the fact he is LTCOL "I can handle whatever they throw at me" Sheppard
:P

[theeverdream.livejournal.com]

lower abdominal wounds squick me for some unknown reason

Oh GOSH. Me too.
It seems like the last couple whump things I have read where I remember detail, it's really gross lower-abdominal detail, which is sort of ironic from my personal perspective.

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

For a while I didn't get why lower ab wounds bugged me so, but figured it was just one of those things, such as the way some people can't stand feet, or the thought of broken bones, or vomit. Sometimes there's a reason for the squick, sometimes there isn't.

But it drove me nuts when gut wounds became all the rage in fic (I swear H/C goes through "hurt" fads - chest wounds one year, gut wounds the next. One year it was leg wounds and concussions).

[ga-unicorn.livejournal.com]

Why bother to whump if you're not going to share what it is? I like to visualize what I am reading and don't mind filling in a little background, but if the author can't or won't give essential details it can completely spoil the experience.

That being said, I have read a couple of great stories where the exact location and type of whump was withheld until the end - but they were both crack!fic.

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

There have been stories I've read where the details of the injury are only mentioned once, but the image stuck with me because of those details (ex. "the bullet had hit him just under the collarbone, leaving a gaping wound oozing too much blood..." as opposed to "he was hit high in the body, and was bleeding profusely." Not that there is anything wrong with the latter, but the former is easier to picture).

What I hate is when it takes the author so long to get around to telling us the location of the injury that I have to guess, and the guess ends up being way off the mark. I've quit reading stories that have done that.

[crashbarrier.livejournal.com]

Sometimes if it is POV story then i can understand it. because having had some pretty serious injuries in my life time i can tell you it can be quite confusing as to the specifics of an injury. I have never officially broken a bone yet so I can't say from experience what that is like (I have hypermobile joints which means for me the joint will sprain or dislocate before the bone will break:() I have suffered deep stab wounds though and cuts and bruising and sprains.. many many sprains and I have to say that especially with stabs and injuries that are fast and quick.. you as the person experiencing the injury don't often know where exactly it is that you have been injured. I myself seem to be one of those people whose brain shuts the injured area down quite fast in the pain department. so its hurts.. but you only get a sense of the general are of the hurt because its vaguely "numb" in that area.. So i can kind of understand when a writer is vague.. but you have to be specifically vague.. (i have no idea if thatmakes sense it does to me) But i think you are right in that it is vaguely unsatisfying to have at least a general area of damage indicated.. even if its is just the "his left side went numb", or his right leg became a sheet of pain.. etc.

I often wonder if it is because a writer starts off with the idea for a wound then moves it in the general writing but forgets to do a proof check to ensure that the injury is consistent through out.. ?

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

I totally get if it's a matter of it being too soon to name the location of the injury. Like you said, if the POV is from the one injured then, yes, I can totally see it taking time before we know the location of the injury (I broke my shoulder clean through after falling off a wall, but didn't realize it until I tried to get up).

But if it's the POV of the one not injured, and they're sitting there looking at the injury (not trying to find the injury, but actually looking at it) but all we get is "She/he stared at the bloody wound" then I get frustrated.

I will grant that it's pretty easy to forget how we injury a character. And the more injuries there are, the more other injuries get pushed back (which is another pet peeve of mine, but one I try to be more lenient about since I've been there and done that :P) If it's a single injury, all I can figure is that the author is being overly cautious, going for vague rather than detailed in order to avoid getting those details wrong.

I also wonder if the lack of details is because the author is trying to avoid squicking themselves. Some are into H/C for the comfort part more than the hurt part, so I can see them glossing over the exact nature of the injury either because it squicks them or because they're in a hurry to get to the comfort (to which I get the latter. I often skip tortures scenes in order to go straight to the aftermath.)

But, still, it's something to be careful of, most especially if an author takes too long to name the location of the injury, or even what the injury is (a stab wound? bullet wound? etc).

[sgafan.livejournal.com]

You always come up with the most interesting topics to discuss! ;)

YES! I need imagery in my head to connect with the story! However, (just to play devils advocate and run with the POV thought...) Sometimes, the moment gets in the way of description of the actual injury. Case in point the current story I'm working on: Scene in John's POV one of the characters gets shot (not him) and they're under fire. He can see the wound on the character's side, but they're in the middle of a gun fight and he has no time to look closely. At that moment, a description of the wound doesn't fit because he's too busy slapping a bandage on it to try to stem the bleeding, and then returning fire to hopefully keep them alive. ;)

When the gunfight ends, yes, assessment can happen and therefore the reader can get more description.

But, at the same time, if the moment is wrong to really detail the wound the rest of the description surrounding the injury can be described, including a location. Gunfire = know its a bullet wound/ bleeding heavily = more than grazed/ wounded character sweating, groaning and clutching at the wound = pain and shock and a sense of urgency. All of that put in a couple sentences. The necessary information needed at that moment, conveyed without affecting the pace of the scene.

I'm all for description but also at the right moment and sometimes urgency overrides everything. (just as, I would presume, in a real fight.) As a reader, if things are happening fast and the writer all the sudden takes time to describe the injury, it can jar me out of the story.

Though, not taking a moment to even say what the wound is or where it is, does seem a little... vague. ;)

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

I kind of wish I could link to the stories that inspired this post (but I don't like outing people). Because if you were to read them I think you would agree that the situation was both the right time and place for a good description of the injury. For example, in the story I mentioned in my edit, the POV - for the most part as the POV kept jumping all over the place - was of the doctor. The moment was the doctor assessing the wound.

The doctor (well, everyone, actually) was kneeling there, looking right at the wound, trying to treat it and the author still didn't give an exact location. Heck, they didn't even say if it was bleeding badly :P

I totally agree, though; in the heat of the moment, when there's too much else going on, description not only can wait but has to wait. You don't want to bog down an action scene with piddly details that can and should come later. You don't want to jump into a description of the wound when the person wounded is too out of it to even know where they are or what happened. Then, of course, you have things like adrenaline that can mask pain and injury.

But when all is said and done, when the heat of the moment has passed and all attention is turned to any injuries had, then we need details. It's during these moments that authors will continue to be vague, maybe giving a passing mention, or in the case of the above mentioned story, completely gloss over the injury as though the details don't matter (when, in the case of that particular story, they really, really did).

And that's what both confuses and frustrates me. Most especially if they have no problem detailing some other character's injury. Another story I read started off with character A (the focus character of the story) getting hurt but with few details on the injury. Yet later on, character B (very much a secondary character in this story) gets hurt (less seriously) and the author goes into quite a bit of detail. And the moment for both injuries was right for a good description of those injuries. That story really sent me for a loop :/

[sgafan.livejournal.com]

Oh, sorry! Not questioning the examples at all, I totally get what you're saying. Sorry if I came across that way, was tired ;)

With a moment like that (doctor and everyone looking on, in Doctor POV/Doctor assessing injury) yeah, some description would be nice and really is necessary to make the POV realistic. I'm the type that needs to have imagery to really feel "in" the story. :) Of course the flip side is the story that bogs down in medical description (I used to beta for a RN writer and constantly had to rein her back because she added too much. LOL)

**And that's what both confuses and frustrates me. Most especially if they have no problem detailing some other character's injury. Another story I read started off with character A (the focus character of the story) getting hurt but with few details on the injury. Yet later on, character B (very much a secondary character in this story) gets hurt (less seriously) and the author goes into quite a bit of detail. And the moment for both injuries was right for a good description of those injuries. That story really sent me for a loop :/**

Oooh, yeah, that's a bit of a problem and a good argument for a good beta reader. ;) I've seen things like that happen sometimes when it turns out the author had a clear preference for a particular character and I wonder if that came into play. We all have our favorites, but definitely have to find a balance when writing multi-character stories especially if you're in a particular POV. :) I hope that my beta reader whaps me on the head if I start glossing other characters in my stories. LOL

Like I said, you have the most interesting discussions! ;)

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

That's okay ;) I got what you were saying and you made an excellent point. It all comes down to balance - knowing when to detail and when not to. As well as knowing how much detail to provide. You're too right about medical descriptions. It drives me nuts when a writer swamps the story with too much medical description. I get it if it's from a doctor's POV, but even then it's something to watch out for as, for one, most readers won't understand most of the terms and, for another, it can get boring fast.

Favoritism drives me crazy not only in reading but in writing. I hate going into a story and not knowing the author's favorite character, because it's not just a matter of who gets the most whump but who also gets the most TLC in terms of characterization and who gets shafted (I tend to call it subtle character-bashing, though it's not really bashing per se, just most of the focus going to a single character when the story is supposed to be about multiple characters). In writing, I like to be as fair as possible when it comes to stories about multiple characters. I want them all to get their share of attention, both whump and characterization-wise, but it's hard when you have your absolute favorite is who you want to focus on :P

[sgafan.livejournal.com]

Oh yes. I spent a lot of time writing in the Emergency! Fandom several years back and I used to see excessive medical all the time. Nothing bogs down the story faster than too much medical detail (and I found some inventive ways to tell stories when I didn't have the details. LOL) and it can be a fine line between not enough and too much (once again, the value of a good beta reader :) )

As for favorites, I think its hard to not show favoritism, we all have our favorites, but as long as the writer is aware and takes steps to even things out, then it usually works out. But its tough to read stories that just about leave characters complete out because the writer doesn't like them. Of course, the story can dictate what characters are featured or not, but for things like team stories, I like to see everyone get at least some "time" and not, for example, have Ronon just glowering and grunting in the background for the whole story and nothing else. LOL

It can be hard, but I've also found that several times when I've sat back and made myself give "face" time to another character and therefore really get into their POV, I inadvertently gave myself some insight into the story I was writing and the nuances of the storyline. It came from stepping back and looking at it from a different angle .(Teyla's POV notoriously does the to me. ;) )

But to each their own, and YMMV to anyone. Its more a reflection of what I like to read. :)