Iz bored, so a Question

[kriadydragon]

This is something I was idly pondering today, don't ask me why. I ponder quite a bit.

In fanfiction, when do you consider a character to be out of character? When do you draw the line between personal interpretation and someone completely skewing the character beyond all recognition?

Which is probably a difficult question. At least to me it was the more I thought on it. Someone writes Sheppard bawling his eyes out because McKay wouldn't hug him - sans any alien pollen or ancient device having tampered with his brain - then hands down we've got to be talking OOC. But overall, personal interpretations are so varied, and anyone could probably make a case for any personality type - possibly even cry-baby touchy-feely Sheppard (though I seriously think an Ancient device or alien pollen would have to be involved) - that you really can't cry OOCness that easily.

For me, and as I've said before, I tend to be a "what you see is what you get" type of person. I fill in the blanks where blanks need to be filled, but overall go with the flow of what the show/movie has given us. But also with some personal tastes thrown in. I'm well aware you could totally make a case for Kirk!Sheppard, since the show - mostly in season one - seemed to be leaning in that direction. But because we never actually see Sheppard sleep with anyone, and it's mostly an innuendo in Epiphany and the rest of the time him harmlessly flirting, one could also probably make the case that he's actually a somewhat celibate guy (At one time I actually wanted to write a story in which John is closet religious, and not quick to sleep around because of it). There have been cases made where he's asexual (which I'm not a personal fan of) or that he's gay (also not a personal fan of). For me, my personal view is that what it all comes down to is that Sheppard isn't Kirk. His goals in life are to fly and protect his people, not seek out nookie where ever he can find it.

I usually back out of a story if it features Kirk!Sheppard, but I don't consider it OOC. Exaggerated at times, but not hands-down OOC.

Some things, however, I can never tell whether my issue with it is a personal view or not. John and Rodney (in a gen story) being touchy-feely and also being okay with it. Don't get me wrong, I love a good H/C story in which Rodney comforts John via touch because John actually needs it, but it's when they're actually comfortable with it - like it's something that they do all the time - that gets me backing out of a story a little. It doesn't throw me out, but it's something I just can't see them being all that comfortable with. In fact, I much prefer it when they're not comfortable as, to me, it makes the action all that more meaningful. But most of all, we see in the show that they're not big into touch, so to me it has a taint of OOCness.

Another is when Rodney calls John an idiot or moron to John's face, and John sits there and takes it. I don't know... to me, it just doesn't feel like Rodney would ever do such a thing, at least not to John's face. And if he did, I can't see John sitting idly by and taking it. I know John gives as good as he takes and all that, but I would think both men would have their limits. I also think Rodney respects John too much to call him such names. Maybe if Rodney were incredibly, indescribably angry and so not thinking straight, but any other time I just don't see Rodney doing that. Also, we never actually here Rodney call John any of those names. And we do see that John only has so much tolerance for Rodney's insults.

Sociopathic John, which I know is popular with a lot of people, but a contradiction when you consider the definition of a sociopath. I can see John going off his rocker, becoming heartless in the moment, but can't see it as his 24/7 personality.

Gay John or asexual John, as I mentioned above. As well as gay or bisexual Rodney. People have made arguments for it, but because that's not what the show was aiming for with their characters, I just don't see it.

Sheppard crying because Rodney got an owie, then he and Rodney hugging, then Rodney crying, then Ronon crying and no Ancient device or poison around to explain why they're so emotional... OOC, I don't care what anyone says ;P.

Comments

[sgafan.livejournal.com]

Hmm.. interesting thing to ponder, mostly because, as we can see in fandom, one person's OOC is another person's "in character". Shipping and Slash especially.

For me, the only way I can explain it is instincts, both when I'm reading and when I'm writing. If Sheppard says something that I think is OOC, I hardly think about it. It's just an instant reaction of "Ugh, no. He wouldn't say that." (sadly, this has become prevalent in the Stargate novels for me lately... ) When reading, I might let one slight "ugh, no, not in character" moment slip but any more have me leaving the story whether it's something said or something done. Of course I'm using Sheppard as an example but its the same reaction for anyone.

When writing, its again, instinctual. It just feels "right" or "wrong" for me whether it's dialog or actions.

I think there are things a lot of us can agree on that are definitely OOC. (I see a few in your post LOL) but I rely on my senses and instincts to tell me. I don't like being jarred out of stories by something OOC and usually don't put up with it long, before I'm putting down the story.

Interesting thing to discuss! :)

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

Boredom breeds discussions ;) This isn't something I'd ever thought to discuss, but after pondering it and realizing that, really, OOC seems mostly in the eye of the beholder, I became curious as to what others thought of the matter.

"For me, the only way I can explain it is instincts, both when I'm reading and when I'm writing."

Excellent :D I like instinct. I rely on it heavily when I'm writing as my subconscious picks up on a lot more that my conscious mind doesn't. With reading I can never quite tell if an issue I'm having with a story is personal or if there's OOCness going on. I'm so incredibly picky that there's a lot that will get me backing out of a story, even if the problem isn't the characters being OOC. But I think, for me, if it is a matter of OOCness when my reaction is discomfort rather than just annoyance. The example I gave above, of Sheppard and Rodney crying, I read a story like that once and it made me nauseas because they were so out of character. It was embarrassing to read the characters like that. So if a character's characterization leaves me feeling incredibly uncomfortable, then I can usually say it's due to OOCness.

[sgafan.livejournal.com]

yeah, same here. OOC usually makes me uncomfortable more than anything. I rarely get mad or anything like that.

Uncomfortable.. good word. At that point, I usually give up on the story and go on to something else. Anything like that just rips me out of the story and its hard to get back into it after that. That's when I give up.

[mmneely932.livejournal.com]

I find that mosts fics, not just SGA, show my favorite characters OOC. Any extreme,that is not canon is OOC. Example: Rodney's hypochondria, John's self hate, Eliz's goody two shoes, and any pairing that is not "set up" in canon. I've never seen anything that would make me think that John, Rodney or Ronon is gay or that Elizabeth or Teyla is a lesbian. If the characters had been written gay/lesbian, then I could and would expect that to be included in any fic. I have yet to read a fic that takes a gay character and has them switch to being heterosexual. It is a sad commentary that there have been very few gay characters included in popular tv shows, the first I remeber would have been the character Billy Crystal (sp?) played in Soap.
John, Rodney and Ronon show no touchy feely traits in the show, quite the opposite, so it is OOC of to write them that way in fic.
Having said that...the whole idea of fanfic is for us to write the characters the way we, the fans, want them to be. If we want Rodney to be whiney, and ignore his maturation in the show, then so be it. If I want to write Sheppard as being a closet relegious fanatic, go for it. I have a plot bunny bouncing around about him being impotent due to his capture in Afghanistan, how radical is that? But that's the fun of fanfic. What concerns me is at what point is the character no longer John Sheppard or Rodney McKay? What constitutes an original character who just happens to go by the name of John Sheppard?

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

"What concerns me is at what point is the character no longer John Sheppard or Rodney McKay? What constitutes an original character who just happens to go by the name of John Sheppard?"

That's what I was wondering, which led to this discussion. After posting, I gave it some more thought and figured that OOC is characterization that can't be justified for anyone. In other words, it's characterization the author is unable to sell the majority of their readers on. It is possible to write a touchy/feely John, but there needs to be a reason for it, an explanation (I wrote a story where John was somewhat clingy because he'd been drugged, abused and was completely out of it). If the writer writes the characters as touchy/feely as though they have always been this way, then we could probably make a case for OOCness.

[wildcat88.livejournal.com]

I tend to be a "what you see is what you get" type of person.

Same here. My view of the characters is through canon, and when fic starts wandering off that, it throws me out of the story. If I can't hear the character say it or do it, I can't believe it. In fact, there were a couple of episodes when I thought the writers made them OOC based on what they'd given us so far (Rodney in S5's Tracker comes to mind).

As sgafan said, it's an instinctive reaction. I read a story once where Sheppard killed a bunch of innocent people in order to save his team. While Sheppard would offer his life in place of his team, I know he would never kill innocents in their place. That is not who he is, according to my interpretation of canon.

[sholio]

In fact, there were a couple of episodes when I thought the writers made them OOC based on what they'd given us so far (Rodney in S5's Tracker comes to mind).

Not that I'm arguing about the general point of characters being OOC in some episodes (because there are some episodes that made me have to stretch to my most tin-hatty to try to reconcile that with the character elsewhere), but do you mind if I ask what it was about Rodney in Tracker that didn't seem, um, Rodneylike to you? That episode is where most of my canon for writing Rodney and Ronon together comes from (since it's one of only a very few episodes in which they interact one-on-one -- and just about the only one after season three), so I'm curious what it was about the characterization that didn't work for you in that ep.

[wildcat88.livejournal.com]

To be fair, I should have said one scene in it didn't ring true. It's toward the end during the big fight scene. It's trivial, I know, but it's when Rodney can't figure out how to load the clip in his handgun. We saw him do it perfectly under extreme pressure WAY back in S1 and suddenly, four years later, he's forgotten? After untold missions and what surely had to have been repeated drills by Sheppard?

Rodney just lying down waiting to die in Quarantine makes me want to claw my eyes out.

It's usually little things like that. John not being comfortable hugging Teyla in Doppleganger after Heightmeyer dies. After four years of missions, bleeding together, fighting for their lives, and after explicitly stating he was on his way to see her. What was he planning on doing when he got there? Now, I get that John isn't the touchy-feely type, but he claims Teyla as family. I just don't buy he would be that hesitant to comfort her. And to make it worse, he does it again later that season (Spoils of War, maybe?).

I guess I might sound like I'm contradicting myself but to not allow for growth within the basic characterization parameters that have been set in canon flips that OOC switch in my head too.

Sorry to ramble on. I'm sure that's more explanation than you were looking for.

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

I always took John's non-touchy/feeliness as him not knowing how to comfort, and him feeling that he's inadequate about it. He tries, he wants to try, but can't quite get to the point where he feels comfortable jumping in and offering that support.

Plus, as someone who is also non-touchy/feely and not good at being the comforting type myself, I can tell you it doesn't get easier. You do get a little better at it, but the awkwardness always remains and there's always doubt as to whether or not you're doing it right. So I can totally see John remaining awkward about it for quite a long time. But that he is trying and we see that he's trying, being there for his team more - such as when he says he was just about to go and see Teyla - shows that there is some improvement. I also think Teyla keeps catching him off guard with all these sudden hugs. She does swoop in on him with them.

But I agree that canon wasn't all that great about character growth consistency. I think the only real consistency was how worn out John looked by season five, but that had more to do with real life that character development, so doesn't really count.

[sholio]

Ah, thanks, I appreciate the explanation! I don't actually remember the scene you're talking about specifically, but I can see what you're saying.

The scene with Rodney in Quarantine ... ha, yeah. That one gives me fits, trying to fit it into not just my fanon version of Rodney, but also just human behavior -- someone who's been chased by aliens for four years just decides to lay down and die when he's locked in a room? How is it possible to write Rodney under pressure AT ALL and keep him consistent with that? Aargh. *smacks writers* The characterization of everybody is really all over the map at times.

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

It's what I don't like about closet-sociopath John: it doesn't make any sense according to who we see on canon. John does what he needs to to keep his people safe but that doesn't make him some secret psychopath.

As Friendshipper mentioned, I think a lot of it comes down to what the author is able to sell the reader on. I've read stories where John has gone off the deep end and it works, but stories as secretly sociopathic, manipulating everyone just for the fun of it - it's interesting as a concept but hard to read because I can't see Sheppard as being like that, and it makes me uncomfortable. That doesn't mean people can't have fun exploring the idea, but they need to accept that a lot of people aren't going to be on board with it as anything more than a concept (there are people who have tried to push this characterization as canon fact).

[sholio]

Hmm. I've read a wide range of characterizations for different characters that seemed in character; I think a lot of it is down to how well the writer can "sell" me on the character acting that way, in that situation. Some writers have managed to take the characters' most distinctive traits and alter or remove them (making Rodney taciturn and withdrawn, for example) but they've adequately explained it, and made it seem plausible enough that the character would react that way under those circumstances, that I've been able to accept it.

At the same time, there is definitely a line beyond which it no longer feels like the character is "acting right", and it's really tough to say where that line is. Like I said earlier, a sufficiently good writer can sell me on a lot of behavior that would be OOC in someone else's hands. However, there are plenty of stories I've read in which the characters felt just subtly off, or behaved in ways that I couldn't see the canon characters doing.

SGA, I guess, makes it both easier and harder on the writers because we saw so little of most of the characters' downtime or personal lives. There's just not a lot of canon to draw upon to know, say, how John behaves in a marriage/relationship, or what Teyla does when she's not working. So a writer can get away with a lot without directly contradicting canon, which would not be the case in a show that showed us a lot more of the characters' personal lives. But it also creates a situation where there are a huge range of different interpretations of how the characters *would* behave under those circumstances, only some of which are going to ring true to each individual fan. I mean, I know I have my own pretty strong "head-canon" about how the characters would act under a lot of circumstances we never saw on the show, but another person might interpret them very differently.

[wildcat88.livejournal.com]

I think a lot of it is down to how well the writer can "sell" me on the character acting that way, in that situation.

Yes. This. Give me the right circumstances and pacing, and I'll usually buy it. But although we don't get a lot of their personal lives painted onscreen, as long as their basic characterization rings true, a writer can suggest that Teyla does just about anything on her day off and I'll accept it. For instance, I would never believe that Teyla spends her day lounging on a sofa eating bonbons. She's too fit for one thing. :) And the times we've seen her, she's been not only active, but brisk and efficient. Her room is neat and tidy. Have her teaching classes or taking classes or filing or organizing the broom closet - anything that fits what we know of her.

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

"I've read a wide range of characterizations for different characters that seemed in character; I think a lot of it is down to how well the writer can "sell" me on the character acting that way, in that situation."

Very true.

"So a writer can get away with a lot without directly contradicting canon, which would not be the case in a show that showed us a lot more of the characters' personal lives. But it also creates a situation where there are a huge range of different interpretations of how the characters *would* behave under those circumstances, only some of which are going to ring true to each individual fan."

Also very true. It's what led me to present this discussion, because as I was thinking about I realized that there's very little we could label as OOC and it actually be OOCness and not just personal interpretations at war. But I think Wildcat88 also has a point in that there is a limit to interpretation, and I think that limits goes along with what you said about the author being able to sell the interpretation. For example, you could write Ronon as being timid, even cowardly (drugs, device, quantum mirror verse, tortured beyond sanity, etc). But if the author writes him as timid as though Ronon has always been timid, then we could claim OOCness.

[reen212000.livejournal.com]

..the whole idea of fanfic is for us to write the characters the way we, the fans, want them to be.

I completely agree. And, honestly, if a fic is prefaced by the words Alternate Universe, I'm prepared for some OOC. Thanks to some great decisions by TPTB, we'll never get to learn more about our favorite characters. I enjoy seeing/reading everyone's interpretation of characters, mostly because, all together, we can see the many sides of each one. Fan fiction can flesh things/characters out, giving a new perspective.

On the other hand, I've read some drivel that makes me wonder.

We've gotten to know so much about Rodney and Teyla and Liz in canon, but we were left in the lightening dark about Sheppard and Dex. The surface was scratched for these intensely private soldiers in the show, but fan fic is where I get my fix. As I've said before, the novels are almost all OOC, and the characters are 2D most times. (Do not read Angelus if you're looking for awesome Ancient/Sheppard interaction! You have been warned.)

There's not a lot I would consider OOC, but a touchy-feely Shep and a wimpy, sniveling McKay is at the top of my list, regardless of devices.

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

There's a lot of interpretations I'm not a fan of. But, yeah, I wouldn't claim them as being OOC. I do think certain aspects of canon characterization does get exaggerated. Rodney's insults and Sheppard's willingness to put up with it, for example, and as I mentioned above. And Kirk!Sheppard. Such exaggerations will often chase me out of a story, and though I could make a case against them, neither can I really say with certainty that the characters are out of character.

And I know I've had Sheppard act in ways that I know people probably felt were OOC (I even had someone say as much in one story, which kind of irked me as there was a reason for John acting the way he was. But to each their own). As you and others have said, the show has given us quite a bit of room to work with, and as long as the author can make something work, there's really no such thing as the "wrong" kind of characterization. Not make it work, then we can talk.

I will say, and slightly off topic, that one thing I don't like is when certain interpretations or ideas become massively prevalent. John escaping from the infirmary, or stories exploring Earth and Pegasus cultures with Earth getting the short end of the stick. I am so tired of the latter, as people often use it to point out Earth's foibles. Which is all fine and well, but I would love to read stories that point out Pegasus' foibles (other than the usual "natives try to kill the team because Rodney stepped on the sacred flower, even though it was too small for him to see, and no one said antying about not stepping on flowers."). Just for something different.

[reen212000.livejournal.com]

Which is all fine and well, but I would love to read stories that point out Pegasus' foibles (other than the usual "natives try to kill the team because Rodney stepped on the sacred flower, even though it was too small for him to see, and no one said antying about not stepping on flowers.").

Ha! OMG yes. I used to like the Aliens Made Them Do It stories, but these days, ideas are lacking. I really dislike Kirk!Sheppard. I think Sheppard would use his wiles to distract rather than attract. I also think Rodney can be mean to the point of vicious, but I believe he would have some self-control when it came to his friends/team. (And if I came across such a fic, it will go into my faves folder immediately! LOL)

Yes, escaping the infirmary has poked at me numerous times. Admittedly, I've used it once or twice. Some writers use the shortcomings of Earthlings as a political vehicle, which I'm so not keen on. I think the episode Inquisition was so half-hearted it was a waste of an episode, trying to bring the outsiders to trial. it was an example of how a flashback ep shouldn't be done, and to me, everyone was a bit OOC in that one. It woulda been nice to see something through the accusers' POV. But instead we got 'we're right, you're wrong. the end.'

And I know I've had Sheppard act in ways that I know people probably felt were OOC

Were they talking about Of Coloring Books...? There's a lot of PTSD fics out there and all of them are different. To me, only a few can compare with your fic. You made me hurt, and see John from a different perspective. If someone is gonna do OOC on purpose, they gotta have the chops to pull it off, AND stand up for what/how they write.

(I am going through your whole catalog again, BTW. LOL) Yes, yes, I know I have a fic to finish...

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

I did have someone say they were iffy about John coloring, but that it didn't affect the story. One person did have issues with the way I wrote Sheppard in one story in which I have Sheppard so drugged that he ends up being rather clingy. Their comment went on about it, how they couldn't see Sheppard doing this, even when drugged. Which is fine, but it irked me as it felt more like stating an opinion just to be stating it than offering helpful critique. We're they saying they couldn't see Sheppard doing this because they couldn't, or because I wasn't able to sell the idea to them? Plus this person tends to be rather opinionated on a lot of stories.

I didn't used to mind infirmary escape scenes. In fact, I used to enjoy them as much as the next reader. It's just that its been done so much, and in some stories didn't make sense according to how I view Sheppard that I became tired of it. There was this one story that was really good up until the infirmary scenes, which turned into nothing but John trying to escape even though he was so injured he could hardly move. It actually struck me as being OOC. I can see John making an escape because he's almost healed and bored, but in this case he was recently wounded and in pain. It made John out as being less than intelligent, and because it went on and on for the sake of humor, I ended up disliking the story.

[bratfarrar]

I guess I have a list of qualities for each character, and as long as the author manages to include those qualities (i.e. for Sheppard, self-sacrifice, inability to verbally (and directly) express emotions, acts/thinks like military pilot, has a weird sense of humor, tends to be opaque, etc.) I'll allow a fair bit of leeway with regard to the details.

As a writer, I tend to second-guess myself a fair bit before finally throwing my hands up and saying "well, that's what they sound like in my head". Don't know if that's a cop-out, but I wouldn't get anything written/posted otherwise.

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

"As a writer, I tend to second-guess myself a fair bit before finally throwing my hands up and saying "well, that's what they sound like in my head". Don't know if that's a cop-out, but I wouldn't get anything written/posted otherwise."

I don't think that's a cop out at all. In fact that's pretty much how the majority of fanficcer's write. That's how I write (though personal preferences to sometimes make a play).

I'm so picky these days that it doesn't take much to throw me out of a story. But most of the time it's not a matter of OOCness, or what I perceive to be OOCness, but a matter of either personal preferences or simply wanting something different. John escaping the infirmary, for example, was cute and fun for a time but now I find I can't stand it. Give me a logical reason for Sheppard escaping the infirmary - the city is in danger, for example - and I'm okay with it. But to have him escape just to be escaping, especially while he's still severely injured, and to me that smacks of OOCness.

[susnn.livejournal.com]

" I think the episode Inquisition was so half-hearted it was a waste of an episode, trying to bring the outsiders to trial. it was an example of how a flashback ep shouldn't be done, and to me, everyone was a bit OOC in that one. It woulda been nice to see something through the accusers' POV. But instead we got 'we're right, you're wrong. the end.'

My, yes. I actually asked on one of the request sites for an "Inquisition" do over in which the defense came from Pegasus folks, from Teyla to Todd.

I've been listening to Pandora radio for a while now. Pandora makes use of music mapping or, as Pandora says "music genome" to create a personalized music station for the listener based on their selection of artist or song. I've been thinking that I should try to map the authors that I follow compulsively - funny how many are in this conversation - to see what common elements lead to my preferences. When summer is over.

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

"I've been thinking that I should try to map the authors that I follow compulsively - funny how many are in this conversation - to see what common elements lead to my preferences. When summer is over."

Interesting. That would be awesome to have for fic, because hunting for fic can be a bit of a lesson in torture. I know I sound like I'm exaggerating but there are stories that I have run into years ago that even today I wish I could scrub from my brain. Searching for ficc can be scary.

[susnn.livejournal.com]

It would be nice to be able to winnow out those stories you'd like to read. Delicious sounds as if it should do the job but I'm not sure the tags actually work or what weight they give individual tags. It looks as if they'll give you everything that has at least one of the tags. Type in GEN and you'll get as many "/" stories as gen stories, as an example. Does delicious have a "not" command that I don't know about?

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

I use Delicious and, yeah, the tags aren't all that helpful :P Even less helpful is that gen doesn't have a set definition like het and slash does, which really irks me. For some, gen means the story can have a pairing but no sex. And for others... you really have to wonder what they think gen means :/

I wish all archives had a "do not want" button/tag/filter. Sometimes it's not about what you want to read but what you don't want to read.