More OOC Thoughts

[kriadydragon]

So a little while back I posed the question of what, to you, constituted out-of-characterness. Because if you think about it - take into consideration that we all see a character in different ways - There's never really saying for sure if a character is out of character.

But I think you can make a claim of OOCness if the characters have been deliberately altered. I don't mean altered as in drugged and not acting like themselves. I mean altered to fit the story rather than the story fit the characters. For example - and this is something else I touched *cough*ranted*cough* on a while back - putting a favorite character on a pedestal by giving them extra traits (like being able to paint, or play the piano, or speak a ton of languages, or fight despite nothing in canon giving us any hint that they are capable of doing such things, or would even be interested in doing such things. Or making them a wizard werewolf kitsune with psychic powers that everyone either wants to kill or protect) and in turn dropping another character down a peg or two (not out of character bashing, but because it helps to show just how awesome and special the fave character is).

I love a story that explores possibilities, that says a character can paint even though canon doesn't give us any reason to believe they can, but it has to work. It has to come off as "this is a possibility" and not as "behold the awesomeness of this character."

And, no, I'm not trying to tell people how to write. I read a story the other day that was a blatant role reversal and blatant "My favorite character is so awesome!" and it made me a bit nauseas. Number one, because it read more like an original story and number two, in order for the favorite character to be elevated another character - a character who is usually smart and unflappable and graceful - was rewritten as more of a bumbling dork (and not in an endearing way). Yes, the author explained why, but the way they explained it was that it was supposed to be temporary. Instead, they've been dragging it out.

This story has also killed "Your characterization is spot on/perfect!" for me :S Those words mean nothing, now *hangs head in sorrow*.

Comments

[black-raven135.livejournal.com]

While I have no idea what the story is that you cite, nor would I want to know..........I find that extremely annoying when they do that to Sheppard.......and while they are making him a mindless dufus, McKay is seen as the one who fills the moment.
Sorry, but Sheppard is NOT a dufus, nor will he ever be one, and it
annoys me when he is presented that way......
It also annoyed me when some of the material in the series pointed in that direction..........
He may not be as much of a mouth flapper as McKay is, but that does not
mean he is somehow less than intelligent.......
AND I know I will take some heat about what I said, but so what?
It is how I feel and always will feel.

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I hate any story where an intelligent person is made less than intelligent. Especially in order to make another character look awesome. I'm not a fan of Teyla wrangling/saving her team just because "they're silly boys always getting into trouble because they're too dumb for their own good." And I also dislike stories where it seems one character just can't seem to do anything right, then gets berated for it even though it's not their fault. I may have been guilty of the latter, though, at least once, but I can't remember :/

[black-raven135.livejournal.com]

I'm not a fan of Teyla wrangling/saving her team just because "they're silly boys always getting into trouble because they're too dumb for their own good."

***NODS***
Would you believe I almost included this peeve of mine in my original reply???
>:-/

[patk.livejournal.com]

>>This story has also killed "Your characterization is spot on/perfect!" for me :S Those words mean nothing, now *hangs head in sorrow*.<<

While I'm completely with you on the rest of this entry - oh, I'm *so* with you there - I'm not quite understanding the last sentence. Why does the fact that there are stories of the described quality out there kill the "Your characterization is spot on" for you? I'm sorry to hear that.

Doesn't the existence of the OOC-stories make different stories that *do* have that "spot on/perfect characterization" generally all the more estimable and precious? Like finding a wonderful gem among a bunch of costume jewellery? :-)

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

I meant when people reply to a story with "Your characterization was perfect!" I used to love getting reviews like that, but such replies have kind of lost meaning for me because it gets tossed around so much. Although, granted, to some maybe the characterization was good, and it's just a matter of eye-of-the-beholder. But with some stories, I really have to wonder if people aren't just saying it just to be polite, or because they don't know what else to say. Or that they don't know the characters all that well, only basing their knowledge on what they read in other fanfic.

So you can never tell if the person praising your characterization is being sincere, just being polite, or has no clue as to what the characters are really like. I'm still quite flattered when I get such reviews, but it doesn't have quite the same impact as it once had is what I'm saying.

[sgafan.livejournal.com]

Can't you make that argument for any sort of constructive praise? Or any sort of comment at all? I think any comment can and does fall into one of those categories.

It's hard. Interestingly, I've had the same kinds of thoughts sometimes when I've read stories nearly unreadable, very out of character characters, and/or rampant Mary Sue and seen people rave about how wonderful it was. It can make a writer wonder. ;)

As with you, I'm very flattered by reviews, especially ones about good characterizations. I'm very big on characterization and "voice". I try to accept that if someone leaves me that in a review, its meant with all sincerity and I take it as such.

Equally, I'm very turned off by "beating down" one character to make another "favorite" character look good. Finding that in a fic, has me dropping it mid sentence and going elsewhere for reading enjoyment. ;)

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

Can't you make that argument for any sort of constructive praise? Or any sort of comment at all? I think any comment can and does fall into one of those categories.

Very true. And, yeah, it can. But, for me at least "your characterization is spot on" is a comment I see a lot, including for stories where the characters are very much not in character. I tend to get a little too serious about writing. I don't profess to be a superb writer or anything, but it frustrates me when characterization is being butchered, and it's the characterization that's being praised.

I'm a control freak like that, I'll admit it. It's not that I don't think the people commenting aren't being sincere, I just get hot and bothered by what feels like the adoration of bad fic.

[sgafan.livejournal.com]

Oh true, good point. Some comments mean more than others. I think that one aspect; character voice is one of the more important ones and one I'm flattered to hear from people. Its hard to see that applied to character massacres and it cheapens the words unfortunately. ;) I don't profess to be a supurb writer either, but when you can't even *recognize* the characters, its a good bet they're *not* in character so it is.... annoying to see characterization praised in that situation.

As for being serious about writing... yeah, SO with you there, regardless of wherever my "skill" level might reside ;)

[patk.livejournal.com]

>>I meant when people reply to a story with "Your characterization was perfect!" I used to love getting reviews like that, but such replies have kind of lost meaning for me because it gets tossed around so much.<<

Ah, now I understand what you mean. I was looking at this from a reader's viewpoint, not from a writer's.

>>So you can never tell if the person praising your characterization is being sincere, just being polite, or has no clue as to what the characters are really like.<<

Well, no, you can't know that but as sgafan already pointed out, you can never now that about any comment. Though I think the mere fact that a reader sends you a positive comment generally pretty much says that they actively *want* to give you positive reinforcement, that they want you to continue writing the way *you* do. Why doing that if it isn't meant sincere?

It would be much easier and less work to simply stay silent if the story wasn't quite to their taste or even if they found it "so-so". Even people who *like* a story often stay silent because they can't actually put a finger on *why* they liked a story just the way it was, or because they don't have the time, or even lack the courage to comment. Keeping quite is easier, so, if somebody makes the "active effort" of positive commenting that should mean they want you to know they liked it, they want you to continue because you catered to their taste the way they like it.

And if the comment lists specific positive points than I guess you can be pretty sure that this was the point that "spoke" to them in a way they liked - otherwise a general "liked it, thank you" would do to be polite, right? Of course I can't know for sure but I think somebody who even makes their comment specific in this way doesn't want to be merely polite but does really want to express his or her appreciation.

Reader's comments are no objective statements. Of course a reader can still like what you write without having the slightest clue about the "real" characters - but focusing on that possibility, that the commenter might be "clueless" ... wouldn't that be a little like "assessing the 'worth' of a feedback-comment for you personally by the reader's ability to judge your grasp on the characters"?

That ability (being able to objectively "judge" a writer's characterization of the characters) would be something a beta-reader would need to have in order to do her "work" on your text, trying her best to see if your take on the characters is as true to them as possible contrary to is it to her own liking - and in this case the "worth" of a beta-advice/comment for you would really depend on how you think about her capability to do that, otherwise it would surely be difficult for you to be able to trust her advise in this regard.

But feedback from a reader? From somebody who simply enjoys the result of your work, your stories, and wants you to know that - a totally subjective thing, their personal opinion on your work, not an objective (beta-) statement (it can't be). Don't worry too much about the question if their opinion is possibly "objectively correct" beyond their personal enjoyment, just try to enjoy the feeling that somebody out there likes your work and isn't too lazy, too shy or too busy to tell you about it. Don't suck the joy of writing out of yourself by worrying too much. :-)

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

True. I can't know. But, no, it's not something I really worry about. Not all the time. I am flattered when someone says my characterization is good, and I don't worry about whether or not they're being sincere. Because if to them the characterization is spot on, then to them it's spot on, even if to someone else the characters feel a little OOC. And it feels good knowing that what I wrote worked for someone else.

But when I read a story where the characters are being blatantly OOC, and it's the characterization being praised, that's usually when I think about it. "You're characterization is spot in" is praise I see a lot (exact, word for word), and when I see it in such stories, well, it's frustrating. Same as when someone says how awesome a story is when said story is poorly written. It's flattering, because to that person your characterization is spot on. But after seeing someone say the exact same thing in a poorly written story with bad characterization, you kind of can't help but think about it.

But that's the thing about writers - especially writers looking to improve: there will always be something that comes along to niggle us with doubts. As much as we appreciate positive reviews, there will come a moment when we wonder. Are they saying that because they think the story is awesome? Or are they saying that because I satisfied a certain kink and they want more? It happens, and though we do get over it and do stop wondering, we will never reach the point of having an impenetrable hide. There will always come a time when we will wonder. It can't be helped.

Also as writers, especially those who take writing seriously (maybe too seriously), it's just plain frustrating to see poor characterization get adoration.