Writing Discussion 5

[kriadydragon]

They're ba-ack!

If anyone is curious as to why I haven't touched on some of the suggested topics it's because some of the topics are rather fanfic centered and I want the discussions to be centered around both fanfic and original fic.

Tonight's topic is on wording, word choices and using words in a way that makes your story flow and holds your reader's interest.

I start with this question: Have you ever read a story that A) even though it was well written, interesting, the content superb and agreeable, something about the story still managed to give you a headache or B) have you ever read a story that though well written and interesting, made your mind wander more often than not and you wished the author would - to put it bluntly - shut up already? I just finished a book not too long ago that actually did both. Though it was good, it just kept going and going and going... yes, the plants have special powers, we get that already. To quote Monty Python and the Holy Grail: Get on with it!

And also this question: have you ever stopped reading a story for something as trivial as, say, the author's choice of words? I have. I believe it was because of the gratuitous use of the word giggle. I don't trust stories written by people who actually think grown men giggle, and said men are neither drunk, drugged, insane or ten years old.

Now on to the topic question - how the heck to avoid all the above mentioned pitfalls?

Comments

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

A thesaurus is your best friend but a dictionary is an even better friend. I often compare writing a story to painting a picture, because like in painting where the right color makes all the difference, in writing the right words make all the difference.

Using my above example again, I've come to really dislike the word giggle. I've read one too many stories where the author got a little too slap happy with the word giggle. I'm sorry but it's really hard to picture a grown man "giggling" over something "silly" his friend did - because they're not friggin' teenage girls - and not cringe. When you hear the word giggle, do you think laughter? Because I don't. I think high-pitched tittering. Giggle may be a synonym of laugh, but it's really a whole other beast. Giggle is a type of laugh, and a word you might not want to use so casually.

And that's why I've come to adore the Thesaurus program on my computer coupled with my dictionary. It's important to be as diverse as you can in your vocabulary, to keep from being too repetitive, but it's also important to not go for just any word simply because it's similar to the word you had planned to use, or because you think it sounds pretty, or poignant, or because you're under the impression that the bigger the words you use the better you're story will be. I've used words before that I thought sounded nifty and that, according to the Thesaurus program, was similar to this other word I was using too much, only to find out that the new word really wasn't all that similar. Only kind of similar. And to know the word's true meaning made it's use in that particular story rather ridiculous. So now, before choosing a word from the list of suggestions the program provides me, I look the word up, first.

I don't worry "too much" about wording during the writing process (a little, but not obsessively or I would never get any writing done). For me, it's usually during the editing process that I pay closer attention to the words I've used - whether I'm being repetitive, if a word feels too much, too little, doesn't fit with the personality of the story (or characters), Doesn't convey the right emotions for the scene, it's too cliche, it clashes with another word or it just plain feels wrong.

As for trying to keep what I have written from losing the reader's interest due to wordiness, when in doubt, I ascribe to my favorite motto of less is more - if it feels too much, too long, too dull, I'll either trim the fat or spread it out. That is, cut out a sentence here and a paragraph there, condensing the scene. Or, if it's a matter of me being too info-dumpy - providing too much information in one go - I'll spread that information out, deal with it scene by scene or chapter by chapter as needed rather than provide all that information at once. In fact, I did just that with my original story. One of my biggest issues with the story was it's pacing. It was slow, slug slow, slug-with-salt-on-it slow. The first five our so chapters were nothing more than massive info dumps and it made the story boring. So I took all that info, broke it down, and spread it throughout the story where I felt it would best fit. Not only did it pick up the pacing and cut down on all that pointless bulk, it allowed the world and its characters to build along with the plot.

Which is also why it pays to have someone look over your story. I knew something was wrong, but couldn't figure out what it was until someone mentioned the pacing issues, especially with the first couple of chapters. You need a fresh, unbiased reader, the kind of reader willing to be brutally honest with you.

[tj-teejay.livejournal.com]

I am loving the Thesaurus too, though most of the time I use my English/German dictionary for that rather than an actual Thesaurus. But I guess for me that's more of a unique situation, seeing how I seldom write fiction in my native language.

It's not that I "translate" in my head what I write from German to English. I write in English and the words form in English (otherwise writing would not work like this, I think). But every now and then, I'm not sure about a word or an expression -- if they have the right feel for the situation, if they mean what I think they mean. Often my gut feeling is right, but in those cases, I usually go to LEO (http://dict.leo.org) and look the word up.

And in a way, I can use the dictionary as a Thesaurus by clicking back and forth between the German and English words. Sometimes when you click the German word that feels right to use, it'll offer you other English words that mean the same or a similar thing. And then I take my pick for what I think fits best.

As for overuse of expressions, yeah, I have that problem sometimes, and I'm sure it's coupled with the non-native speaker thing. My active English vocabulary, while probably being way more extensive than the next German's, is still a lot smaller than my passive one. Well, that probably applies to German too, but I still get annoyed at myself sometimes for getting stuck on expressions and words and descriptions that I feel I keep using too often. That's when it helps to have a good beta reader.

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

but I still get annoyed at myself sometimes for getting stuck on expressions and words and descriptions that I feel I keep using too often.

This drives me crazy, especially if I can't find the words or expressions that could replace it to break the repetition.

[tari-roo.livejournal.com]

Interesting topic! Because yes, I have stopped reading both orignal and fanfic because of excessive descriptions or weird/annoying word choices.

From a fanfic point of view, I sometimes feel that certain word choices may 'disagree' with readers (i.e. me) because it links to characterisation (as you use the example of the giggle). Use the wrong word for a character and the ick factor is generated.

How do you avoid these pitfalls? One thought that springs to mind is - less is more. As writers we may fall into the trap of 'showing off' our vocab or ability, or just simply get carried away with long descriptions. Yet, so often, less is definitely better. Shorter, sharper, less convoluted writing. The reverse side of that coin is the minimalist approach and not even the bare bones being provided in writing. So as a writer you need to find the happy middle ground of painting enough of a picture with your words, but not overwhelming the reader.

I think it is a true skill to be able to sketch out the scene in a few sentences rather than paragraphs and paragraphs. Or let the scenery unfold around your dialogue, let the reader discover it with you.

And then... there is editing. If a word feels overused, it probably is. This is one of my checks, if I see a word occuring too often, I'll try and rethink the whole sentence rather than be repetitive. And likewise the check - would my character actually use this in dialgoue and does it fit their own style especially in POV writing.

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

What I really love about "less is more" is that (well, for me at least) I find it easier to go back and add what's needed as opposed to going back and taking things out. You have what you need in terms of the basics, you just need to touch it up, and I love the feeling you get when you start to see your story coming together little by little. While with taking away - though it's very much a necessity - it can kind of hurt, sometimes, especially if what you're cutting is something you really liked, but it just didn't fit.

[tari-roo.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, I agree. Adding is far more creatively pleasing than needing to edit out. :)

[sholio]

Word choice is hard. I guess that it falls under the heading of style -- some people prefer to write in a more flowery style, others like to be very stripped-down with only the minimum needed to tell the story. Generally I prefer a simpler, more direct style as a reader, but I have to fight to keep from overloading my own prose with run-on sentences (my betas often tell me to break up my interminable sentences -- and they're right!) and convoluted ways of avoiding using the perfectly good words "was" and "said".

Up to a point, you really have no control over how your reader reacts to your writing style, just like you have no way of knowing if they have a knee-jerk "hate!" response to one of the tropes that you absolutely love and like to use. I have trouble reading a lot of fantasy novels because they use a writing style that is more lush, flowery and descriptive than what I personally prefer to read, but it doesn't make them inherently bad. Some readers prefer that genre, though, because they like beautiful, creative language.

But it's only true up to a point, because like you said, the words you use should be the right ones for the job, and if you're turning off a lot of readers with your prose, then it's not doing your story any favors and it's something that need to be worked on.

I sometimes struggle with this when I beta for people. I don't have any trouble pointing out words that are factually wrong for the way they're being used, but it's a lot harder for me when I hit a word that simply doesn't seem to fit with the tone of the scene -- like your example of the word "giggle", where it's too frivolous a word for a serious scene. But it's hard for me to decide if it's just a matter of personal opinion or something that I really ought to point out to the person I'm beta'ing for. (Usually I point it out but include the caveat that my opinion might not be the only way of viewing it ...)

Along those lines, it's not so hard for me to find a word that means what I want it to mean -- the hard thing is making sure that the words I'm using have the right "feeling" for the scene. And I don't really have a formula for it, at all. For me, it's very much under the "art" part of writing as an art form; it's just a matter of how it feels to me, how the scene makes me feel when I re-read it, whether there's anything that is throwing me out of it or whether I get caught up in it.

One thing I have learned through posting and re-reading my fanfic is that if there's a turn of phrase that seems awkward or strained or out of place to me, I need to change it, because it really won't look any better the fifth time than the first. *g*

I love the whole "less is more" discussion that you and tari_roo are having, because I think that's an excellent point -- it is easier to add than to cut! I often have to stop and remind myself that I don't have to get it right on the first draft, I just have to get the gist of it down. It's okay to go back and fix it later.

[sholio]

Another thing that I find very useful, if there's something I'm specifically struggling with, is to look at the mechanics of how a favorite writer handles it. For example, if I'm worried that I'm over-using the word "said", I might pick a writer whose books I like, and see how they handle dialogue attribution in their dialogue scenes. If they use a lot of "saids" and I never even noticed, then I guess I shouldn't worry too much about over-using it in my own dialogue!

One recent example of this sort of thing is that I'd gotten concerned about overusing the "there was" construction in my scene descriptions. ("There was a brilliant sunset in the western sky", etc.) In an attempt to avoid it, I would use convoluted and rather strained sentences ("A brilliant sunset flushed the sky") but when I went and looked at scene descriptions in books I'd recently read, it turned out that it was often used and not at all noticeable, so I stopped worrying about it so much.

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

Another thing that I find very useful, if there's something I'm specifically struggling with, is to look at the mechanics of how a favorite writer handles it.

Oh, that's a good one. I've actually found myself doing this quite often, lately; asking myself "okay, so how would so-and-so author go about doing this?" I also do the reverse, look at books I didn't enjoy or enjoyed but found hard to read to know what not to do. Like the story I mentioned in my example. The story was good but, man, the author rambled, and that's something I'm personally not a fan of (I say "personally" since, like you mentioned, there may be some who do like it. But as authors, what we write is usually what we want to read and the way we want to read it).

[swanpride.livejournal.com]

You know that's one of the instances I very much prefer German over English with it's rigid SPO-structure. With the German language, you can get much more creative, both in the word order and the choice of words.

To avoid the overuse of words - well the problem is to find out what your own writing habits are. That's one of the reasons I write fanfictions, to find this kind of pitfalls. Ie one reader once pointed out to me that I tend to like tears too much - and it's true, my characters tend to tear up way to easy. It's a cheap way to show emotions, really.

I'm also a straight to the point girl - I have less an editing and more an "I should add some details"-problem.

But when it comes down to writing interesting, there are three rules I like to follow.
1. Show, not tell. That's a very important one for me, because going straight to the point has the pitfall of telling to much. I'm at a point where I examine every adjective I use twice.

2. Don't insult the intelligence of your readers. It doesn't pay off to write on the most dumbest level - TV-Shows writers tend to do it that way, but the average reader normally is able to get some level of subtility. It's not necessary to spell out everything, and it's not necessary to explain anything twice.

3. Pay attention to the pacing of the story. The reader needs to have the feeling that he makes progress while reading. (that's double true for fanfiction - nothing so frustrating like getting an update for a WIP, and then getting a chapter in which nothing gets resolved).

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

3. Pay attention to the pacing of the story. The reader needs to have the feeling that he makes progress while reading.

So yes to this. I can't stand filler chapters there simply because the writer had no idea what to write, or stories that feel like they should have ended thirty chapters ago but just keep going. Then there's the flip side - stories that seem to do a lot more glossing over than actual exploring. There was a published author who I lost patience with because they would build and build all this intrigue and excitement only for nothing to really happen. For example, one book had these two characters plotting to kill another character. All through the book these characters are plotting and plotting, and you think that when the moment of truth comes it's going to be good. What happens? Somehow someone discovers what they're up to, they're arrested, and it's all neat and tidy and quiet. And the only way we know about it is because it's mentioned briefly in a paragraph before the story moves on. I finally gave up on the author all together.

Which I think brings up another good rule - See the story through. Whatever you write you need to be willing to see it to it's proper conclusion. Don't string your readers along only to deny them the payoff of a good confrontation or emotional explosion or what have you, and don't shove your characters into messy situations unless you're willing to deal with the messy aftermath.

[black-raven135.livejournal.com]

YES to both A & B.......
e.g. when I was asked if I would fill in for a judge
for a M7 contest...........I could NOT believe the writers got to the finals
B is what makes me nuts..........they go around and around and around
until I zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz out.
Fortunately when I have done SGA beta it has not happened but I have read
some ff that featured both also.
I wonder if the person had no beta
Any self respecting beta would in particularly point out B

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

I think in fanfiction it becomes a little too easy to overlook a lot in order to keep getting the kind of stories we want. Which really isn't a bad thing except when we have stories where it's obvious the only editing the author did was to put it through spell-checker.

What gets my hackles up is people who will nit-pick well-written stories that have been beta'd, edited and where you know the author knows their stuff. While stories making blatant factual mistakes let alone have spelling mistakes left and right are praised like they're the best thing since sliced bread.

[black-raven135.livejournal.com]

"....people who will nit-pick well-written stories that have been beta'd, edited and where you know the author knows their stuff. While stories making blatant factual mistakes let alone have spelling mistakes left and right are praised like they're the best thing since sliced bread."



Ironic you mention this. Not too long ago a friend, who is a writer in fandom and a very very good one, said the very same thing.
She said while the best sometimes are nitpicked or totally overlooked, the stuff which is full of errors etc. not only in content but punctuation, grammar etc. is praised heavily

It makes no sense to me, but it didn't either when I was asked to judge
The stuff that made it to the finals was so full of errors that it left me no choice in one but to leave the following note:
If she continues writing, she NEEDS a beta badly