Concerning Romance

[kriadydragon]

Ever since I began writing fanfic and discovered that I wasn't the only one who enjoyed seeing characters put through the wringer it got me thinking...

Most TV shows seem to get more fixated on establishing romantic pairings (as well as filling the cast up with as many females as possible on some shows) than doing much else with its characters, and I've always wondered if romance and sex-scenes are really that popular or if the writers just assume they are. Since writing fanfic, taking part in discussions of shows, etc. it seems that people get more ticked off by romantic attempts than enjoy them, mostly because of who is paired with who, and other times because people simply don't want the complications romantic situations can bring to a show.

So between romance and whump, which is more preferable? And I'm talking about more actiony shows like Stargate, CSI, Supernatural and so on. If it's a show all about romance, well, that's kind of a given of what's preferred. But in the case of more action/mystery oriented shows, does the romance annoy more than entertain? Or is it the way the romance is handled that annoys. Or maybe because a show does too much romance and less whumping.

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I've never been able to stand romance. I hate sex scenes and sensuality for one - how loud the kissing always is (and in books I've always hated the descriptions used: "her creamy white thigh and full, sensual lips..." *shudders* Just writing that example made me want to puke) and how it comes across that it can't be romance until the two have ended up in bed together. I also hate all the complication - "I love her, I don't love her, I love her..." blah, blah, blah.

But what I've really hated is the way the romance can take over what should be an action or mystery focused show or story. And I honestly don't think viewers are as interested in it as writers think. Either that or lose interest fast when it keeps dragging out. Last season of Lost, for example, ended up losing a chunk of it's viewers in part because of the constant focus of Kate and Swayer and Kate and Jack. Too much shipping and people got sick of it. And the biggest fear people seem to have when it comes to changes in a show is the introduction of a new female character to be the love interest of one of the male characters, and vice versa.

I'm not anti-romantic, I just like it when the romance is more subtle. I like cute romances that, if possible, end with marriage or two people separated finally finding each other, hopefully without it leading to them sleeping together. And it is possible to have romance in something without it leading to sex.

But I'm more happy when the romance is more a side thing than a focus. The presence of romance is fine, just so long as it doesn't dominate and turn the story or show into a soap opera.

Comments

[parisindy.livejournal.com]

i will always vote for whump!

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

Me too. I don't mind smidgens of romance, but with some shows romance has a way of taking over.

[parisindy.livejournal.com]

yup totally agree

[giusytriso.livejournal.com]

I'll ALWAYS choose Whump over Romance.
There is not comparition at all.... but sometimes I "need" a bit of romance, maybe because I'm on the mood or just because I want to read something different.

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

I think a little bit of romance is necessary since it is a part of life. Nothing big, maybe something small and cute or something slightly more obvious but without it dominating. The heavy stuff can clutter up a plot too much, especially in the case of something that's supposed to be action/adventure. There was only one show I liked that I stopped watching because romance ended up dominating, making the show incredibly boring to watch.

So romance is fine for the most part until it's all the writers of a show, or even a book, pay attention to.

[kontiki.livejournal.com]

The presence of romance is fine, just so long as it doesn't dominate and turn the story or show into a soap opera.

Exactly The Point!

In MY opinion !lol! it is easier for tv writers to write good whump than it is to write good romance. I think this is primarily because tv writers actually lose track of the difference between SEX and ROMANCE. Sex is easy, just look at the afore mentioned soaps. But even the soaps have turned out some classic romantic pairs: Luke & Laura, Patch & Kayla, huh. when I started this I had a third pair but I've lost them :(

Well written romance makes the character more vulnerable, which provides a bigger backdrop for whumping :)
I think that if romance is done well, it can heighten the whump factor by a lot.

Bad romance ruins the entire story.

Sex without romance makes the story unbearable. Sex with romance is usually done wrong and they end up spoiling the romance hence spoiling the story. Just look at all the shows that have used UST as an easy replacement for romance that lost viewership when the characters have sex.

Have you seen the tv show "Beauty & the Beast" with Linda Hamilton & Ron Perlman? Great whump!
Probably the BEST romance ever written by tv writers. The standard by which any tv writer doing romance should be held.

"Hart to Hart" with Stephanie Powers & Robert Wagoner. Solving mysteries was the primary theme, but they used well written romance as a sort of spice (cliche I know!).

And it is possible to have romance in something without it leading to sex.

Implied sex works for me in the tv medium :)

"I love Bruce Willis in "Die Hard". He pulls out all the stops for the love of his life. It has some of the best romance ever, and they are separated the entire show with him on the ground and her on an endangered airplane. NOTHING is going to stop him, and look at the great whump that results!

Yeh, I'll go for the whump first! But whump with well written romance is the best!

[kontiki.livejournal.com]

sigh, I apologize. My quotes didn't turn out right. I have no idea what I did wrong. :(

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

I think it's just the formatting of this template. Whenever I try to quote it's hard to see where the quote is.

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

I agree. Well plotted romance - where it's more about love than creating a sex-scene - can make for excellent story lines and, like you said, lead to good whump.

My only favorite Romances are Ever After with Drew Barrymore (no sex) and Nicholas Nickleby (definitely no sex, it's based off of a Dickens novel). In both the romance is sweet, simple, yet very powerful.

I think romance is used too much as an excuse to get a sex-scene on a show, and that writers don't seem to pay attention to the conflict it creates in the plot and for the veiwers. I used to watch Smallville but lost interest when the focus was less action and mystery and more Romantic conflicts.

[wraithfodder.livejournal.com]

I'm all for first, most of all, a well-written story, but romance should be like salt, used sparingly. Too much and you ruin the meal. I'm not anti-romantic (but get tired of some fans going "you're anti-romantic"). If I want romance every day, heck, isn't that why we have soaps and crud like Desperate Housewives?

I gave up on LOST in season 2. It got, alas, predictable.

As for the shipping in the SG universe, it hasn't done anything for SG1. And some fans just quit the show altogether cuz Sam and Jack didn't get together.

Nope, leave romance off to the side, used very sparingly.

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

Very true. There was a show I loved that a lot of fans were complaining about there being "no romantic chemistry" between the male and female character. But, dang it, that's one of the reasons I loved the show! Lots of great whump and no heavy romance to clutter it up. There were hints of, maybe, possible romance but not once did the two characters end up sleeping together. Which, despite what the romantics might say, I think would have totally ruined the characters. Especially the guy since he wasn't the spontaneous, "give in on a whim" type.

I thought how that show handled it was perfect. And you're right, if you want romance there's plenty of shows that focus on it. Shows that don't focus on romance should keep any romance to a minimum or else it'll try to take over (I've seen that happen a lot).

[bratfarrar]

Now I'm curious as to which show it was.... Although I have my suspicions.

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

It was called Earth: Final Conflict. Best show ever up until the very last season when they got rid of the guy and made it all about the girl.

[bratfarrar]

Oh, I remember that show! I really liked it, although I only got to watch it now and then. And then suddenly Liam was gone, and it was just Renee, and I was all 0_o and stopped watching it, and yeah. Liam and Renee together were very cool.

[bratfarrar]

I'm not anti-romantic, I just like it when the romance is more subtle. I like cute romances that, if possible, end with marriage or two people separated finally finding each other, hopefully without it leading to them sleeping together.

I assume you mean 'without them sleeping together on the show/in the story'? But yes, that side of things is best kept behind closed doors, I think. And the thing is, there are so many more ways to show that characters are in love - really in love - than kissing/sex. It's all in how they relate to each other, whether they put the other person first. Little things, like getting their favorite kind of ice cream, or that book they've been looking for forever. (You can tell what's on my mind at the moment. ^_^) Kissing/sex only shows that there's a physical attraction, and I have no interest in that at all.

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

I assume you mean 'without them sleeping together on the show/in the story'?

Well, yes. Sex must come eventually, I just don't want to see it.

I also think sex scenes, even if just implied, cheapens the romantic aspect. There was a movie I saw not too long ago, a cute little romantic fairy-tale that was nice up until the implied sex part. I just felt it out of place for something that was supposed to be a kind of fairy-tale. Sort of like how in a lot of kids movies these days there's adult humor added for the sake of the parents (which, from what I hear, isn't appreciated by the parents.)

[bratfarrar]

Well, yes. Sex must come eventually, I just don't want to see it.

I also think sex scenes, even if just implied, cheapens the romantic aspect.

Yes, exactly. You want to show me that two people are in love? Have them hold hands, fall asleep on each other, steal the other person's coffee - don't give me bedroom scenes or show them making out for twenty minutes. Sex is something private, and sticking it in the story makes me feel like I'm intruding on something that I have no right to see.

Or it just looks/sounds forced or corny, and that makes it harder for me to take the relationship seriously. So really, nothing to gain and everything to lose by showing me what should be kept behind closed doors. And no, sticking a spotlight on said closed doors isn't much better.

...And I don't mean to rant at you. Because you're definitely not guilty of any of this. Sorry for being so cranky this morning.

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

No, rant away. I find ranting to be very cathartic.

[sholio]

I strongly suspect that there are a LOT more women who enjoy romance than those who enjoy whump/hc. At least ... the women I know in RL, who can probably be considered more of a random sample than those I've sought out online due to similar interests, are romance people. My own family runs towards "both" -- i.e. when I've actually asked women like my mother and sister and so forth, my female relatives like to fantasize about whump in romantic situations: either being the "nurse" type person taking care of the injured hero, or being injured themselves and then rescued by the hero. I imagine that these are common fantasies, at least by looking at romance novels (which are all written by and for women) and the way that romance is portrayed on TV.

And, too, guys have the idea that all you have to do to lure female viewers is to introduce an element of romance, so if they're trying to get women to watch a show, they'll play up the romance angle. Again, I can't say they're wrong, because soaps have millions of viewers. (I used to watch soaps as a teen and early 20-something, also.)

We women who don't especially enjoy romance are in the minority, gotta get used to it. *g*

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

And, too, guys have the idea that all you have to do to lure female viewers is to introduce an element of romance, so if they're trying to get women to watch a show, they'll play up the romance angle.

Oh I don't doubt that. I know that's why shows of any kind have romance. And like I said in previous comments, shows do need a little romance. It just seems that, these days, for shows that don't revolve around romance, the increase of romance "seems" to tick viewers off more than draw them in. Although I know that has to do more with who is being paired with who, how the romance being handled and so on.

I read an article about Supernatural where the writers and producers were reassuring the viewers that two new female characters were not coming on as side-kicks or potential love interests. It's what got me really thinking about romance in television these days, if it does draw more of an audience or annoys them. Probably an equal helping of both depending on the show.

I strongly suspect that there are a lot more women who enjoy romance than those who enjoy whump/hc. At least ...

I'm not denying that. My sister used to be into romance novels and I had a lot of friends into romance. Romance is popular, that can never be doubted. I just wonder if the way it's handled on shows, sometimes, drives even hard-core romantics off. Especially if it's less heros hurt/less damsels in distress and nothing but sex scene after sex scene.

[sholio]

You know, I think one reason why deliberately introducing a romantic plot element into a show alienates viewers is because it feels forced. In order to work, romance and love (like friendship or rivalry or hate) has to develop naturally from the characters' personalities and their interactions. Being told that the writer is putting in a character just to add romance doesn't *mean* anything. It'd be like the writers introducing a character just for whumping purposes -- it's silly, it's meaningless, it just means that they don't get why viewers like that sort of thing.

I think this is why even viewers who really enjoy romance are leery about having a "love interest" show up in a show that hasn't had this before. People who like romance aren't going to enjoy *every* romance, any more than those of us who like friendships will enjoy *every* friendship, and a forced one or one that's poorly drawn is worse than none at all.

I don't think that a show should avoid the subject of romance entirely, especially if they deal with all areas of the characters' lives (as opposed to just their work lives) because most adults are at least somewhat concerned with love and romance and finding a life partner. That the show would occasionally deal with this search -- that's something that I *want* to see, because it makes it feel real, and because you see different sides of a person when they're falling into or out of love. I like the way that SGA has handled Rodney and Katie, or Beckett and Cadman -- they're endearingly cute, and it helps give the impression that the characters have personal lives off-camera, but the relationship doesn't overwhelm the show.

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

Okay, that makes excellent sense. The writers for the show Numbers did that very thing - introduced a character as a romantic interest for that episode only. Stupidest thing they ever did and dumbest episode ever, the kind of episode added to the "didn't happen list".

Opposite to that was what they are doing on NCIS - a character introduced as a romantic interest, but the romance slowly building, the character's characterization and background with it so that we come to like the character and relationship more. What NCIS is doing is more real, while what Numbers did was more like a pointless cheap shot for the purpose of sticking in some sensuality.

[radioshack84.livejournal.com]

I think I'm somewhere on the line when it comes to romance vs. whump, though if I had to pick one or the other I would choose whump.

Many shows do seem to focus *way* too much on sex and romance and (in my opinion) cut out a lot of good whumping opportunities...of course I won't deny that whumping/hc can get sappy and obnoxious too if it's not done right.

If you're going to have romance in a show, it's better if it's subtle and displayed through (mostly) non-sexual behavior.

If you're going to have an action/adventure show with a good amount of dangerous situations, then I think some level of whump/hc is important for believability. I mean, if you have a human being getting shot at/jumping out of helicopters/chasing or being chased by bad guys through rugged terrain in almost every episode, I'm not going to be able to buy into said human being never ending up with more than a scraped knee. The law of averages dictates otherwise, no matter how much 'heroic luck' one possesses.

Then again, as evidenced by my own fanfic, I have a hard time getting enough whump...so maybe my law of averages is slightly skewed toward 'lack of luck, heroic or otherwise'. :)

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

Then again, as evidenced by my own fanfic, I have a hard time getting enough whump..

I think we pack the whump into fanfic to compensate for the lack of it in our favorite shows. I've noticed that two of my favorite shows - Earth: Final Conflict and Supernatural - I can never think up stories for because they do such a good job whumping. Whumping in ways that I can't top.

And I can't stand it when shows pass up on good whum opportunities. If a guy gets punched in the face there's going to be blood, and half the time we don't even get that much. So when a shows packs in the romance and skimps on the whump, I feel very cheated.

[mtee.livejournal.com]

I really don't like the romance much in a drama. Although if they are pushing 2 characters together constantly but never let them kiss, it bothers me. I guess I'm not for the UST. Cute flirting is fine with me, but anything more takes from the action.

CSI - please don't get me started on all the Sara/Gris stories out there. You can't find a decent action story anymore. All I want is my Nick whumping. But no -- it's all romance.

CSI NY - Danny/Lindsey -- ick! I want Fleck drama. But Romance is all you find.

Bones - once again - where are all the writers? It's all Bones/Booth. Yes the show feeds into this, but it's still a drama and the fanfic should represent more drama than Romance. But that doesn't happen.

Stargate - luckily there are wonderful (ahem!!) writers who can feed our drama cravings.

So give me whumping!!

SN - those girls better not mean we are going to be inundated with romance stories! I'd rather we get the girls whumping our boys (ok, mostly Dean!)

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

Yep, yep, yep. That's why I haven't been able to write much CSI:NY stuff. I kind of rely on other fics to motivate me to write fics in that particular fandom. I'm a Danny whumper, but all we get is ship, ship ship. The last time I visited the CSI:NY fandom, there were about five new non-ship stories that were Danny related. I haven't been back since as I see no point.

I actually have the same fear for SGA since slash is so popular in this fandom. Slash, after all, is another type of romance. Whether slash or het, romance tends to be rather dominating in a lot of fanfic. Romance is popular, I know that, but it's frustating when a fandom for a show that is centered around drama or action/adventure gets saturated with one type of genre.

I mean, if it's a fandom for a show like The OC or One Tree Hill and other types with a lot of romance, okay. Since it's how the shows are, it's how the fandoms are going to be. But for shows like CSI and SGA, there needs to be more variety. Thankfully SGA still has plenty of variety (and probably always will). But, yeah, shows like all three CSIs are kind of turning into a lost cause when it comes to genre variety. Not to say that there aren't more CSI gen stories out there, they're just getting harder and harder to find.