Le Sigh

[kriadydragon]

Why is it I always get reviewers who want me to rush through my stories? Seriously, besides the usual "this is how you know the difference between your and you're", I always get people telling me to move the story along. And this time it was for a one-shot!

I'm not saying they didn't have a point. They might have, I don't know. I do know that, except for the escaped spelling errors here and there, every time I look the story over, I'm still happy with it. It just bugs me because I really can't say if they have a point, or if they were just being impatient. I've gotten impatient with stories, wanting them to hurry up to the whump or to get back to what's happening to this or that character. However, it's an attitude I don't listen to as I know that for the story to hurry along to the good stuff would make it cheap and flat. Some stories need time to build to make the climax more poignant. And the last time I got a review like that - being told to move things along - it was right before the chapter where I have things move along. Had they been patient, they wouldn't have had to make that comment.

Have any of you gotten reviews like that? Either ones that did have a point or ones that left you wondering if the reader was just being impatient,  wasn't paying attention, or something else? Or was just plain unhelpful?

That's the problem with critique in fanfic. You love the praise, but would also like help in knowing how to make the story better. However, it's kind of hard to say if the "helpful" critique you got involves an actual flaw or is just that one person's opinion. We all vary, not just in our genre likes, but also in what we like in a writing style. I like a lot of details, some people like stories that get the point across in few words. Some like quiet stories that build slowly, others like stuff that's fast-paced.

I also, personally, think it rude that the only reason that someone leaves a comment is to point out what was wrong (we may have all been guilty of that at one point, though.) The best kind of critique is one that points out the strength and weaknesses, while also offering up - if possible - ideas of how to fix those weaknesses. That's what critiquing is all about - helping the author better themselves. When you leave a review that's nothing more than telling the author what's wrong without including what's right, it discourages. There's original stories that I've scrapped because everyone kept telling me what was wrong without helping me figure out how to fix it.

Okay, mild rant over.

Comments

[sholio]

I suppose I've developed a thick skin from my day job (I'm a layout artist/typesetter for a daily newspaper) and from having had things published and subsequently getting roughed up at the hands of reviewers. *g* In theory, I do want to know what the problems are that people have with my stories. In practice, though, I know exactly what you mean, and I've certainly had my share of WTF? reviews.

The thing is, as a reader, I can usually gauge ahead of time if I'm going to like a story or not, and if not ... I just don't read it! Reading something I know I'm probably not going to like and then leaving a scathing review is just ridiculous. I have no idea why people do that.

It's a little harder with WIPs; I've read some WIPs that started off promising, had me emotionally invested and then totally lost me in later chapters -- and it's hard not to criticize. In fact, in two cases I can think of, I completely swore off the author because of WIPs that disappointed me badly; in one case I did leave a review saying that I probably wouldn't be reading the author's work in the future and telling them why (politely, I hope), and in the other case I just quietly bowed out without leaving a review. I'm really not sure what the right decision was, and in neither case do I think that leaving a review would have really changed how the author writes in the future, so ... I just don't know. I think that I'd want to know why, if someone was bitterly disappointed in one of my stories, but on the occasions when I have gotten reviews that told me why people didn't like my stories, it didn't really enlighten me as far as making me a better writer -- it basically just came down to issues of personal taste.

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

I think that I'd want to know why, if someone was bitterly disappointed in one of my stories, but on the occasions when I have gotten reviews that told me why people didn't like my stories, it didn't really enlighten me as far as making me a better writer -- it basically just came down to issues of personal taste.

Exactly. I want to be a better writer, want to take the critiques into consideration, but can't since it's one critique which could be one persons view and the only view out of all who read.

There was only ever one helpful critique I got, and that was to "show rather than tell" (yeah, I know, I'm always bringing that one up but it really was the best advice I'd ever got and made my stories better.) Other than that, a lot of the critiques I get could be more a matter of opinion. I do love details, so it's possible that some of my stories drag. On the other hand, I try never to put anything in a story that doesn't have a purpose, either to the plot or the emotion.

I think that's mostly why I don't critique unless I really, really feel the need to. And even then it's usually over grammer mistakes and such (some people do go nuts with those elipses and exclamation marks). Other than that, sometimes the problems I have with a story I feel are more a matter of personal opinion. Other times I don't know how to word what it is I want to say. And still other times I'm afraid that what I say could end up discouraging the writer (especially if what they are doing is throughout the story, like in a WIP, rather than just one chapter.)

Then there's stories I can't comment on at all as I won't have anything nice to say (not that I stick with those stories long, anyways.)

[karri-kln1671.livejournal.com]

I think that part of it is that better writers tend to rely on the story to draw in reviews, and weaker writers tend to solicit reviews from friends, acquaintances, and anyone else they can find. Thus they tend to get more, and because the review is solicited and being given more as a favor than anything, the comments are complimentary. (I have one friend who is shoddy as a writer -- bad with plausibility, research, plots, etc. -- but is an expert at soliciting reviews. She's always trying to give me lessons, but I preview unsolicited reviews, so she's not had much luck teaching me. She used to ask me for reviews, until she discovered that I'm a whole lot more likely to give a critical review when solicited for a comments than I am otherwise, because if I'm not obligated to give a review and I don't like the story, I just stop reading.)

[sholio]

until she discovered that I'm a whole lot more likely to give a critical review when solicited for a comments than I am otherwise

Oh heavens, yes, I'm very much that way too! Usually I'm a lot more inclined to be nice if the author isn't actively soliciting reviews. But if they've got a terrible story and they're begging for reviews, I'm awfully inclined to oblige them ... and be quite honest when I do. *g*

[sholio]

I must say there's one kind of criticism that I always appreciate, though, and that's people who point out factual or canonical errors in my stories. If I've genuinely made an error, I always want to know about it -- someone corrected me on gun calibers, for example, where I'd been writing .9mm when it's actually 9mm. Duh! Or continuity errors between chapters -- I was especially appreciative in "Fading Sun" that people kept catching places where I'd accidentally slipped back into the conventions of "our" universe when I was writing about the AU universe (for example, forgetting that the uniform colors were different).

Basically, it's just useful to have someone else watching my blind spots. I also want to hear about it if people feel that I'm character-bashing or giving short shrift to one or the other of the characters; I might not agree, but I'm interested to know how my stories look to other people. Perhaps hypocritically, this is one area that I usually don't mention when I'm reviewing other people's stories, unless it's just to compliment them on a particularly good characterization -- I'm really wary of saying "That character doesn't read right to me". But I want to know if my characters don't "read" right to others, if that makes any sense. Or if I accidentally give offense in one of my stories -- I'd want to know about that too (and I've appreciated the times when people *have* pointed out things like that to me).

[alipeeps.livejournal.com]

Oh definitely. I'm always grateful for factual corrections... in my second ever fanfic (a House one) I made a reference to the local police department and (not being American or knowing anything about Jersey - other than what I read in Janet Evanovich books! :lol:) got the acronym wrong and someone, very politely, and taking pains to point out they liked the story and just wanted to help, corrected me in a review and I thanked them profusely and immediately amended the story.

On the OOC thing, I won't usually comment on it unless I feel it's a) badly OOC or b) deliberately OOC to serve the needs of the story the writer wants to tell (e.g. the whole "poor noble self-sacrifing Woobie!Rodney whose team is all mean to him and don't appreciate him and so he saves the day again and is terribly injured in the process but suffers in silence because he knows they don't really care about him and then he nearly dies and they all feel guilty that they took him for granted and that he was so upset by their behaviour that he didn't tell them about his terrible injuries and it's all their fault" kind of stories :lol:)

Mild OOC-ness, or what I might perceive to be OOC-ness could be down to personal interpretation and so I won't comment unless I feel it really warrants comment.

[sholio]

Ahaha, the infamous "post-Trinity" stories! (And their inbred kin.) There's a really hilarious post on that particular sub-genre (if you can dignify it by that term); I keep linking people to it because it cracks me up every time, and it just nails the horribleness in a sort of amusingly semi-affectionate way. If you haven't seen it, I can send you a link when I get home...

Just to add to the hilarity, people seem to be doing it the other way around now, too -- woobie Sheppard with cruel Rodney hurting him or getting him in trouble due to being mean/thoughtless/blinded by science. I've seen a whole bunch of these stories cropping up lately. Perhaps it's just that the characters get along too well on the show; writers want to inject conflict into the group, but doing it without making them massively OOC takes more writing skill than most of these people have. *g*

I'm not really sure if it's worth mentioning to the writers, though ... if they could see it, I'm not sure if they'd be writing it in the first place.

[alipeeps.livejournal.com]

Good point. If they're that blinded by e.g. their Rodney love that they genuinely see the team's on-screen behaviour towards Rodney as being mean and dismissive then no review, no matter how well it's worded, is ever gonna convince them of the massive OOC-ness of their fic! :lol:

Oh and yes, linky please! :D

[sholio]

The "post-Trinity phenomenon" post:

http://iibnf.livejournal.com/1328223.html

I ought to warn you that the author actually quite clearly likes these kinds of stories -- it's a recs list -- but luckily this doesn't stop her (I assume it's a "her") from mocking them.

[karri-kln1671.livejournal.com]

In truth, its rare enough for me to get reviews at all. When I do get them, its even more rare for them to constructive or critical. I've mixed feelings about that. Part of me says 'YAY! There's was nothing to criticize', but the rest of me wonders if people are just humoring me with vague niceties cause the stories are either too uninteresting to hold the reader's attention or too horrible to be worth the effort of trying to fix, but the jist of this comment is that I haven't a lot of experience with critical reviews. I will say that on the rare occasion that I leave a critical review, I try to start with something positive before getting to the criticism, because I wouldn't be bothering with the constructive criticism if I weren't overall enjoying it.

As for the specific criticism, you can't please everyone all of the time. For every reader who things you need to move things along faster, there'll be one who things you're rushing things, and another who thinks the pacing is perfect. You need to write a story you are happy with and let the readers take it or leave it. More will take it, I don't doubt.

*hugs*

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

As for the specific criticism, you can't please everyone all of the time. For every reader who things you need to move things along faster, there'll be one who things you're rushing things, and another who thinks the pacing is perfect.

True. But I think it still bothers me a little because it makes me wonder if what was said was really the case. Which is why it's such an unhelpful review as it could just be an opinion, but I still take it into consideration because I want to better my writing.

What really gets to me, though, is that you'll have great and well-written stories that will get nit-picky reviews (I'm not talking about my stories. I've seen this a lot with other people's stories), and stories that could use a lot of fine tuning or are complete crud that, maybe they don't get a ton of reviews, but the reviews they do get are all praises. So why isn't anyone nit-picking them?

I'm not saying some of us need fine-tuning and some of us don't. Even what may seem like the most awesome, perfect story in the world may need fine-tuning. I'm just saying that if you're going to pick on a well-written story, you'd have better also be picking on a less-than-stellar story as well. Critiquing is all about helping people become better writers, so it boggles me when the good stuff gets nit-picked, and the not-so-good stuff (though showing promise, maybe) is generally left alone.

[alipeeps.livejournal.com]

What really gets to me, though, is that you'll have great and well-written stories that will get nit-picky reviews (I'm not talking about my stories. I've seen this a lot with other people's stories), and stories that could use a lot of fine tuning or are complete crud that, maybe they don't get a ton of reviews, but the reviews they do get are all praises. So why isn't anyone nit-picking them?

Because a lot of people review on content, not execution. I.e. if they like Sheppard/Weir, they'll post a "OMG! That was so gr8t! They're so cute together, you must write more!" review for a badly written, OOC monstrosity that because it's Shep/Weir, regardless of the quality of the actual writing.

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

Very true.

[sholio]

Well, and I think that thoughtful, intelligent people with good critical-thinking skills don't bother with lousy stories. I know that I'll just ignore the bad stories -- they're not fixable. It's the almost good stories that make me want to give a critique, the stories that could become good if they just had a few things fixed. Or the really good stories that just have one little factual error or something like that. I wouldn't bother pointing out a geographical error in a story that's abysmal otherwise, but if it's an otherwise good story that misrepresents the location of the Stargate within Atlantis, I might point that out.

[alipeeps.livejournal.com]

True. I used to try and review every fic I read but I'm afraid these days if they're that bad then I just won't say anything. I've also learnt that most writers whose work is that bad (in terms of just not taking the effort to even try and get grammar, spelling, characterisation etc right) have no interest in concrit and only want "Yor so gr8t" reviews so best not to bother anyway.

[kristen999.livejournal.com]

I worry about that sometimes and have to remind myself why I'm writing something. I like to think a few of my stories are more character pieces and therefore are going to have a slower build up. I try not bog down in details, but I think tone is very important and sometimes you need all the added layers to really explore your themes.

There are going to be readers out there who just want to jump to the 'whumpy' parts and we just have to deal with that.

In my current story I think it's at a slower pace than my usual stuff but once the climax does hit, its pretty intense for the rest of the story...will readers be patient about that?

I hope so.

For me personally its been one of the more challenging stories I've written just because I decided to write all from one character's POV and one that I find to be a tougher to get inside his head.

I guess what I'm saying is yes, I have gotten those type of reviews. And its very annoying and you hope people don't speed read through parts you put a lot of care into, but in the end, if you're satisfied with the result then thats all that matters.

And we won't even talk about people who ONLY review when they point out an error and are silent the rest of the time.

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

There are going to be readers out there who just want to jump to the 'whumpy' parts and we just have to deal with that.

I was so prepared to recieve a "move it along" review for Castles. I was quite surprised by which story got that review instead.

I think the bigger issue, for me, is the "hurry-up" attitude people have these days when it comes to reading. People are so rushed that they can't even simply sit down and read a story through, they want the story to hurry to certain parts.

If a story is poorly written with no proper flow, I can kind of understand. I've skimmed through such stories as they are impossible to just read straight through. But stories like yours - with good flow, action, and where everything that happens has a purpose - there's no excuse to rush through it, unless the reader is just reading for the whump. In which case, they are the last person who should be leaving a critiquing review.

[alipeeps.livejournal.com]

I've had my share of random reviews... and yeah I agree it's hard to know how to deal with concrit at times and we would all love to get a detailed concrit that lets you really evaluate whether improvements could/should be made. But I also know the pain of trying to word concrit right.. struggling to strike a balance between pointing out perceived issues, praising good stuff and offering suggestions.. and it's hard. And I guess every comment can't be a four page essay on how things could be improved.. and even if it were, as you say, it comes down to opinion.

I've had someone tell me the use of present tense in writing a fic was distracting (in fact, I think they actually told me it was grammatically incorrect too) whereas I (as well as knowing that it's a perfectly valid, if less-often used technique) had specifically chosen to write the fic in that way as I felt it fitted what I was trying to do with the fic. And I still feel that way and have no desire to change the tense of the fic.

I think there's only so much you can get from the short reviews left on e.g LJ or ffnet... they can't offer in-depth feedback on how to improve your fic - for that I think you need a good beta reader or a writing group or whatever.. people who will read your fic, give their honest thoughts and enter into a dialogue about the fic.

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

I've had someone tell me the use of present tense in writing a fic was distracting (in fact, I think they actually told me it was grammatically incorrect too) whereas I (as well as knowing that it's a perfectly valid, if less-often used technique) had specifically chosen to write the fic in that way as I felt it fitted what I was trying to do with the fic.

That's another issue - the possibility of the person who's telling you how to write having no idea how to write, themselves.

I think there's only so much you can get from the short reviews left on e.g LJ or ffnet... they can't offer in-depth feedback on how to improve your fic - for that I think you need a good beta reader or a writing group or whatever.. people who will read your fic, give their honest thoughts and enter into a dialogue about the fic.

Probably why it's better to leave a nice review or leave no review at all. For some people, there's really not a lot you could say that would help them improve, especially if you don't know how to say it. However, encouraging a promising writer to continue writing will get them to write more, and the more they write, the better they get.

Since I'm not good at critiques, I've settled for volunteering to be a beta instead. Except every time I beta for someone, after two chapters they seem to disappear.

[alipeeps.livejournal.com]

Heh. Out of interest, I've gone back and looked up that review to see exactly what it said. It was:

The verb tenses are so distracting that it takes away from my enjoyment of the story. Please get an editor.

See, that's the very definition of unhelpful concrit. Aside from the fact that it's incorrect (using present tense is a perfectly valid writing technique and having an editor won't change that fact - the reader's dislike of it is down to personal preference, not superior grammatical knowledge), it's really rather aggressively phrased and it's hard to not find it rather insulting. If the reviewer had simply said, "I found the tenses distracting" then fair enough, that's personal preference. However what they actually did was effectively state that the tense ruins the story and that my writing is grammatically incorrect. When it's not. :lol:

[sholio]

Ouch! That's a terrible critique. The snide tone just tips it over into gratuitous nastiness rather than being helpful in the slightest.

I was thinking about starting a "how to critique" thread at writers_lair (if work continues to be slow enough this afternoon that I can write it up *g*). I might use that for an example if you don't mind.

[alipeeps.livejournal.com]

Isn't it though? One can't help but feel that the intent of that review was not in any way to help but rather to offend.. and possibly to make the reviewer feel superior about having better grammatical knowledge than the writer of the fic (which rather badly backfired considering they were actually wrong! :lol:)

Feel free to use it as a discussion example.. I've just joined up to the Lair and look forward to participating...

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

Hee-hee! I was totally thinking about doing the same. But you'd probably do better.

[sholio]

It's looking like I might not get it done 'till later tonight, so you're certainly welcome to start a topic on that if you feel like it. If not, I'll write up something when I get home (but it'll be kind of late tonight, since we're eating out after work).

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

Was it an anonymous review? One of those ones where you can't respond? I used to not understand why anoyone would disable anonymous reviews until I got my first negative critique and couldn't respond.

[alipeeps.livejournal.com]

Nope. My account at ffnet was automatically set to disable anonymous reviews, I think, and I've never altered that setting. I like to know who I'm talking to... :D

[coolbreeze1.livejournal.com]

Eh! My Internet's back up and I come across this huge discussion about leaving reviews. Very interesting...Hope I'm not way late on the tail end of this conversation, but here were my thoughts.

First of all, I always have a hard time with what to say in a review because it's usually hard to tell what the author is really looking for in feedback unless they specifically state something to the effect of "I tried this; what do you think?" I thought the comments about people who solicit reviews interesting. My impression of authors in that situation is that they're nervous about their story or their writing abilities and are looking more for encouragement than criticism. I think part of learning to be a good writer is building up the confidence to put what you've written out in public (whether that's posting it online or just sharing it with a few friends or family members). That can be pretty intimidating when you're first starting. Depending on the story and what it means to you personally, it can often feel like you're exposing a very vulnerable part of yourself to others. My take on that is that maybe for some people, that nervousness and vulnerability comes out as asking for reviews or an encouraging word. That may not be true all the time for everyone, but I figure if I treat it that way, I'm not unintentionally cutting someone down.

For people who do want concrete criticism, how do you comment on the pacing or structure of a story that you’ve only read part of? You really need to read the whole story—beginning to end—to make any kind of useful, valuable comments on whether something is working or not working, whether the pace is too fast or too slow, etc. Ultimately, all criticisms are just one person’s opinion. I think most writers are aware of their own weaknesses in their stories, at least in part—such as whether a scene makes sense or is confusing or sounds OOC, etc—and reviews that speak directly to that concern are the most helpful, and the reviewer probably has no idea they were being helpful! Whether I agree with a criticism or not, I always try to at least look at it from their point of view. Maybe I’ll see something I wasn’t aware of before, and then I learn something. Maybe I don’t see what the reviewer had a problem with, and then I’ll just move on.

I feel like I’m starting to ramble now, so I’ll cut this short. You really can get only so much out of the short comments on LJ or ffnet. I love the idea of a writing group. That kind of intense back and forth would be great—almost like I was back in my college writing classes. A friend of mine at work writes fantasy and I was trying to get her to start a writing group with me, but alas, no luck…

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

Excellent point about authors who ask for reviews.

I think what annoys people is not so much people asking for reviews but the way they ask. You can pretty much tell the people who are feeling a little overwhelmed from the people who are, for lack of a better word, blackmailing for praise.

Those who want the feedback to know how the story is going usually say so. "Well, what do you think? Good, bad? Please let me know." The ones just trying to get feedback will be all "Give me ten reviews now or no next chapter" (Yes, there are such solicitations out there like that.) There's wanting to know how a story is doing, then just being demanding, and I have stopped reading because the author was being demanding.

I have an easier time listening to a critique when it's handled as I mentioned in my post - pointing out both what's strong and what needs work. If it's just "your story has the following problems" without anything positive to say, it come across - to me - as that reviewers subtle way of saying "this sucked and here's why." Which probably isn't the case since they did read it and leave a review. It just feels... wrong, impolite. such reviews don't leave me horribly angry or upset, just temporarily annoyed.

They don't need to leave an in-depth review, just a "this was good, except..." so that the writer doesn't get discouraged.

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

Oh, and I forgot to say that, as for myself, I never know what to say when it comes to critiquing. It's rare for me to do any type of critique unless something is really bugging me. Other than that, like you said, so much of it is a matter of opinion. So the only time I do critique is if there's grammar mistakes.

[coolbreeze1.livejournal.com]

I agree, the more I think about it, that it is usually fairly obvious when someone asks for a review because they are feeling a little overwhelmed and when they are "blackmailing" for praise. Some stories came to mind where the authors were soliciting reviews in a way that made me feel like I was being guilt-tripped into it. That is pretty irritating, and I admit I have stopped reading those stories, but that may be because the story itself just wasn't—to be blunt—either well written or capturing my interest. I wonder if there's a connection there...