kriadydragon | So, Anything You'd Like to Know?

Please? Oh, please tell me which fic it was where you put tape worms in John's back... I think that I haven't read that one yet.

You're a Shep whumper. Among those of us who love Shep whump. I can't explain it. It runs on several reasons. We love to see Shep suffer 'cause he does it so well, 'cause we love to see those around him actually show him that they care? I'm still trying to figure it out myself.

What do you think? I am curious...

It's called Parasite, and is in my story list on Fanfiction.

I left a similar response to Alipeep's meme on why we whump. For me, it's because it's a way to make the supposedly stoic, unflappable hero more human. Whump brings out the human behind the cliche hero. It reveals their vulnerabilities, limits, and weaknesses. And, in turn, it makes us care for him more. Not just care for him, but even, possibly, relate to him better.

It also makes a situation far more intense than merely the prospect of whump. Whump creates an extra obstacle for the hero, and holds the viewers/readers attention far stronger than simply the possibility of hurt.

But that's just my view on whump :) You should check out Alipeep's meme on why we whump. Lots of excellent responses in it.

I read your answer over at Ali's LJ, and I thought it was a great one from a writing standpoint, but ... I'm not sure if it really answers the question of why "whump" specifically -- because there are other ways that the same end can be achieved: for example, by having the hero fall in love, by threatening his friends, by putting him in a situation where his skills and expertise are useless. I certainly don't deny that injuring the hero (or heroine) is a great way to put them through their paces and generate audience sympathy for him/her, but it's not by any means unique to that particular technique.

A story about Sheppard caring for his ailing grandfather, or dealing with Rodney's death, or having to use his wits to get himself and a badly injured Teyla out of a labyrinth of deadly puzzles, or in which an Ancient device accidentally turns him into a platypus, probably reveals just as much about the character as a story in which he's injured. It's a tool in the writer's arsenal, and there are practical writerly reasons for using it, but I think the actual reasons for pulling out that tool instead of another one are more emotional than practical. Not to say it can't achieve everything you say it can, because it can (although, like any other writer's tool, whether it DOES achieve its goal(s) depends on how it's used). But why a person would choose to do that rather than, say, achieve the same end (making Sheppard vulnerable, human and off-balance) by having him fall in love with Teyla comes down to a matter of taste and, possibly, mental wiring.

That's why I said "for me". Whump is my means for bringing out the humanity in a character. It's why I whump (hmmm, I probably should have clarified that more). I have used other means, but whump is my preferred method, especially for Sheppard since he is the hero and, normally, on shows, the hero always comes off as being the most difficult to scathe. I like exploring his breaking points both physically and mentally, rather than just mentally.

I don't think there's one universal answer to why people like whump (though some psychologists my disagree) sort of like there's no one universal reason why people like het or slash romances (some like it for the emotions, others like it for the kink.) The only way to answer the "why do people like whump" question is personally. "I like whump" rather than "people like whump."

Ahhhh. You know, I think there are kinda two different parts to that question -- one is "why do I write whump?" (or h/c, my preferred term) and the other is "why do I prefer whump?", and the answers are not necessarily the same. In giving my own answers, I've usually tended to take part 1 as the easy part -- "I write it because I enjoy it, duh" -- and then spend all my time analyzing the second part: what do I get out of h/c that I don't get out of something like romance?

I think some of my confusion with your answer is because the reasons why you'd given for writing it are my reasons for writing almost anything -- to explore the character and peek under their hood, as it were. "I write h/c because it lets me explore the character's emotions" doesn't quite seem like the same thing as "H/c is my preferred way of exploring a character's emotions" to me -- at least, it was getting me confused.

But I'm much less confused now. *g*

(And we're watching NCIS now, and WOW, is Gibbs totally the "Sheppard" of that show, or what. Talking about stoic, unflappable characters... He's definitely got the whole "stoic team leader, really cares deep down" thing ... he makes Sheppard look downright in touch with his emotions! I haven't started poking around for fic yet because we're only in the middle of the second season and I fear spoilers, but I definitely suspect that this will be a show I'll be seeking out h/c for.)

Ah, I see. I hadn't thought of it that way.

Whenever you're ready for some good NCIS H/C angst, I recommend Florence1's Between a Rock and A Gibbs. It's Tony whump but with some very excellent Gibbs angst. It was the first story I got into when I first found out about Fanfiction three years ago. And it was only last year she completed it! I'm not sure which season it is (between one and three, maybe.) I have it on my Fave's list if you're interested.

You now have a folder all on your own on my hard drive.... Just like Kodiak Bear Country.

You both write the most amazing fics.

Thank you for writing them.

Why am I always making it so poor Shep loses weight?

I have wondered this from time to time--particularly since Sheppard seems to maintain a fairly steady, healthy weight in canon.

Although I must admit I am rather bemused by the whole "Shep whump" thing.

To start off, I'm not of the fanon cliche club of "Sheppard doesn't eat enough!" because he does eat enough. If he loses weight, it's always for a reason (too much stress, sickness, torture leaving him mentally vulnerable, and so on.) But I always try to acknowledge that he is normally a very healthy individual.

I love underdog heroes and angst. Causing Shep to lose weight - either to emaciation or simply an extra wiriness - is a way to achieve both. When skinny, he's easily underestimated. But I'm a firm believer that size doesn't matter, and that Sheppard can take down the bad guy - either with quick moves or using his brains - without having to be fit.

Also, I feel Sheppard's greatest drive is protecting others. When so sick and/or injured to the point that he's physically weak, it slowly kills him inside, especially if something is happening to his team. Having him lose weight is a way to achieve that frustration as well as prolong it. It's also something for him to over come.

For example, in my story Wayfarers, I'd put the whole team through the wringer. Sheppard, of course, came out the worst. He was forced into slave labor, then when he became too weak to keep working, he was dumped onto a charnal heap. The story begins with the team finding him, and throughout most of the story, he's so weak that he's the one needing protecting. When he's strong enough to move on his own, his emaciation causes him no end of worry because it means that he can't protect his team. However, toward the end of the story, his team is captured and it's up to him to save them, so he fights against his weakness, uses his brains instead of brawns, and saves them.

However, with some stories (like Parasite and Heartbeat) losing weight is simply inevitable. I am, however, trying to cut back on making him emaciated.

Shep whump is kind of an acquired taste (like having a preference for ship or slash), but I feel that it does have a purpose beyond merely being someone's fetish (see above reply). For me, in my stories, the whump has to have a purpose. It either reveals something about the character, or simply makes him more human and easier to relate to. "How" I whump Shep, however, is the fetish part. Weight-loss will always be my favorite, along with broken ribs and illness.

I had kinda wondered about the anorexia thing, because anorexic-Sheppard is such a common thing in fic, not just yours. I suppose I'd always chalked it up to "other people's kinks, not mine" and never thought too much about it, beyond wondering if it had something to do with Flanigan being a trim guy to begin with. Interesting explanation. The way you describe it, it sounds like the reasoning is similar to why my plots often involving doing something to his legs, thus making it difficult for him to spoil my carefully crafted plot by charging to the rescue and shooting the bad guys. *g*

I am trying to move a little away from using starving/super-slender Shep as a way to achieve under-dogedness (which, I know, isn't a word) as I do use it so much and not everyone likes it. The thing is, especially lately, the stories I keep coming up with all involve Sheppard having to lose weight because it's inevitable (sick Sheppard has been slowly devouring my brain.) Not a big old heap of weight, but there's still weight loss involved (I am staying completely away from emaciated Shep).

Though I do have a soft-spot for Carson getting after his weight in some people's fic, I don't buy into the anorexia thing. Sheppard is slender because he's healthy, and he eats like a normal, healthy male. If Sheppard's to lose weight and have eating problems in my stories, there has to be a concrete, believable reason.

I can see where you're coming from but there's so many ways to make John the underdog without resorting to him loosing weight. I guess it wouldn't be such an issue but you do admittedly do it to him a lot...almost all your short stories even have some degree of weight loss and it can be distracting sometimes. I've seen you move away from it a little....and its nice to read new ways of achieving the same goal.

Headaches, concussions, broken bones, wounds and surgery can gain that exact type of weakness. After surgery most people can't walk for a week without being in pain or being very sore no matter how 'strong willed' you are.

We all have our ways and means of doing stuff and its cool you're so open about discussing things. I understand your reasoning totally,and its what drives you...so its all good.

I've always enjoyed your creative twists on things...when or where do you get most of your ideas? As in I tend to get plot ideas when I drive or riding in a car for some reason....or when I'm about to go to sleep.

I think its because I'm not thinking about anything and my brain is in roam mode.

What about you...when do those little creative plots hit you?

I am trying to write less stories that involve weight loss, but for the most part, I'm also trying to tone the weightloss itself down (i.e. cutting back on emaciating him, but mostly because I feel bad for doing it). The thing is, I can't make any promises. Weight-loss is my all-time favorite whump next to broken ribs and a shot to the shoulder. Plus many of my story ideas make weight loss (whether major or minor) kind of inevitable (illness, capture and mistreatment, and so on). Using other methods... I don't know, they just don't cut it for me. Weight-loss, coupled with an injury or illness, I think - for me, of course - has an added oomph of humiliation, depending on the situation and how bad off he is.

So there will still be stories where he loses weight, just not as many if it can be helped. I do want people to enjoy my stories. At the same time, I have to be careful that I don't reach that point of stressing over whether people will like a story or not. Sometimes I have to write a story for myself - for cathartic purposes - which means there's a good chance weight loss will be involved.

After surgery most people can't walk for a week without being in pain or being very sore no matter how 'strong willed' you are.

No, muses, no! Stay away from that idea!

At the same time, I have to be careful that I don't reach that point of stressing over whether people will like a story or not. Sometimes I have to write a story for myself - for cathartic purposes

Thats what is the most important thing!!

After surgery most people can't walk for a week without being in pain or being very sore no matter how 'strong willed' you are.

Hehe yeah I'm exploring that in my current long fic....

Eric's recent surgery has really given me some ideas for some stuff...I won't tell him that our recent experience has gone down in the 'research' category.

lol

Okay, now on to the answer.

Oy, that's a toughy. For starters, I could probably make a career out of daydreaming (oh, wait, I am!) I'm always thinking up stories. Now that I'm into fanfiction, between thinking up original stuff, when in need of something to think of, I turn to fanfic plots.

My "good" ideas, however - and I define good ideas by how much I enjoyed writing the story and how easy it was to plot and write - usually have a source. Hound of Hell You Cry, for example, was inspired by a computer game - Clive Barker's Undying, which is the creepiest Game I've ever played. My current story, Castles in the Sky, was born from a desire to write a slave fic. Most slave fics tend to be slash, and I wanted to do a gen one. But I didn't want to do a typical slave fic. In the end, it became more of a character study than slave story (the healing part is longer than the slave part.)

There also has to be a concept involved. For example, Wrong End of a Leash, my first SGA story, started as a concept - a human made into an alien's pet. The thing is, that story easily could have ended up in the Battle Star Galactica or Andromeda fandom. I needed a sci-fi fandom for the idea, but had only just started watching Atlantis. So I thought "what the heck" and used the idea for an SGA fic. So it's because of a story idea that I'm now a rabid SGA/Joe F fan ;).

A lot of my ideas also come from things I do in my original works, or concepts I can't make or fit into an original work, so use it in fandom instead in order to get the idea to stop bugging me.

So, for me, ideas can come from anywhere at any time (I once got an idea for a scene in an original story just from walking into a hardware store). What it all comes down to is whether or not the idea grabs me and hangs on. I've come up with ideas that I'll toy around with for a while, only to have them drift away when I lose interest (or the idea makes me uncomfortable in some way). Other ideas will have me salivating to write it, but the very next day, the frenzy wears off, taking the desire to write it with it.

Anyways... yeah, that's it in a rather long-winded and large nutshell. Aplogies for the rambling.

Hm...well, I'd ask her a question, but I'm a whumper, too, and generally speaking, we're fairly in sync on viewpoints re: characters and stuff... I suppose I could ask about your fondness for emaciated Shep, but that one's already been asked, so I'll just ask: writing?

so I'll just ask: writing?

Um... could you elaborate?

Writing something purdy for me to read?

Brendan is being whumped even as we speak. ;) And he's bare-chested, hee-hee!

*squeeeeeeeeeeeee*

I gotta say, it used to concern me when you wrote Sheppard as being so thin. But then I realized that it is about the "underdoggedness", and the fact that he's not used to being so weak he can't help or protect. In our corner of the h/c 'verse, it drives him crazy. He can't show that everything's normal when he's sick/injured, no matter what he says.

My favorite example of this is your story Pyrotechnics (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3420573/1/Pyrotechnics). John was hurt, but tried not to let anything stop him. Even performed a helluva rescue. (Does that make any sense? LOL) Love that story. Oh, and Mercy (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2879952/1/Mercy), where John can't say anything at all. You're a gifted writer, so never stop.

So now, I'm not worried about you anymore. When I write my version of h/c, I use Sheppard's probable weight loss as a sign that something's wrong, since he won't say it outloud. It's a muse that works for me. We all need something to keep us writing!

Which reminds me, can we please have another appearance of Sherbet?

We should probably start a club - or support group - "Skinny-Shep Lovers Anonymous".

Yes, the weight loss must have a purpose. I do feel bad for the times I've made him emaciated, though. It was a way of getting it out of my system since I'm always "trying" to do that to original characters. But, like with Sheppard, I am trying to cut back.

In the Thoughtcrimes fandom, however, Brendan will always be skinny. Not emaciated, just skinny. Because his job, his memory and his obvious OCDness when it comes to doing a good job will forever make him a bean pole and under. Plus, I love whumping him through illness (which, inevitably, leads to weightloss) I don't know why.

We should probably start a club - or support group - "Skinny-Shep Lovers Anonymous".

Hahahaha. Totally.

In the Thoughtcrimes fandom, however, Brendan will always be skinny.

I have to agree with you there. He'll always be the obsessive type, I think. Also, Joe's new character, John Ash, seems like Brendan only a bit darker. I don't really like the premise of Women's Murder Club, but adding JF to the mix has made it watchable. Sorta. Seriously, who wants to watch a show with a bunch of headstrong, independent women? LOL Very nearly want to write a tag for the last episode.

Whumping through illness is awesome.

*pokes Reen and whispers in her ear* I have a John Ash comm you could post it to if you wrote it. *puts on halo and makes puppy dog eye*

Hee! I'd like to see the next episode to see if my assumptions are correct. John Ash was kind of a jerk at first, then he softened a bit. I have questions... I'll keep ya posted!

Cool! :D (And I sincerely hope there is a next episode.)

The Dragon's Lair

Where the Wild Things Are

So, Anything You'd Like to Know?

So, Anything You'd Like to Know?

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