kriadydragon | Term of Endearment or Verbal Abuse?

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Term of Endearment or Verbal Abuse?

I was watching an anime the other day and as is usually the case with animes one character was verbally abusing another - calling them an idiot, moron, etc. All out of endearment of course, but it made me think: Do people really do this to each other? Even to people they love? Do they call family and friends idiots and morons? To their faces?

I've always had issues in fic when someone will have one character really, really insult another character, even though other character is one character's friend. It's why I squirm whenever Rodney calls John an idiot to his face and John just sits there and takes it, or Peter calls Neal an idiot to his face. Because... would anyone actually do that? Because even if the person doesn't mean it, even if they're just teasing, those are still some pretty strong words. If a friend, or especially a family member, called me an idiot or moron just to be kidding around, I'd be pretty friggin' ticked.

I suppose I could understand it if that's just the way the person is, they don't mean it, and everyone knows this. And I could see the recipient of the insult putting up with it because they felt they deserved the insult (because they actually did something to deserve it, not because they were conditioned to think they deserve it). But... still... I would think it would be rather hard not to take at least some offense. After all, a line should be drawn as to how far someone's abrasiveness can go.

What do you all think? Do you know people who are insulting but because that is the way the person is, or because the person doesn't mean it, no one takes it personally?

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It is one reason why I find McKay so hard to tolerate.
I wonder how HE would feel if people were so demeaning to him?
I believe I have said before that intellect is made up of many things
and in my book AND it does not feature demeaning another person in order to
enhance self.
I find it reprehensible behavior in any case. It is not cute, nor is it warm affection as some writers seem to think.

I see it in stories and on TV but it's only now hitting me as to whether or not people actually do this. Out of anger, okay, I can see that. We say a lot of things out of anger. But as a term of endearment?

That's why I could never really handle Rodney calling Sheppard idiot or moron in a fic. Sometimes it has even thrown me right out of a story. We never see Rodney get that insulting with Sheppard and I highly doubt Sheppard would put up with it if Rodney did. I'm starting to see the same thing happen in the White Collar fandom and like with SGA, it's kind of making me squirm.

I highly doubt Sheppard would put up with it

**NODS***
If he did, it would not be the Sheppard WE all know.........it is some person created in the mind of a writer who is not dealing with the real personality, but something they have conjured up in their limited thinking.

In reply to your question about a term of endearment.......it is NOT
in any ways endearing

I think it conventional, as you say, between characters in anime, and buddies in mystery fiction regularly do some form of it, adapted to their circumstances and personalities.

I get that you are asking about real life. In the family I grew up in, no, nobody ever did this. But the fact that I was/am not used to accepting it has been a sort of handicap in the real world. My husband's siblings tease him and each other heavily, and feel that I'm fair game too, so I often have to take long walks when there are family gatherings. To me it verges on the viscous at times.

My sons do a version of this, too, but it is much more affectionate, and they always smile and trade little whacks or scuffles. It has a different flavor. It's loving, not like vultures after prey. Glah.

I think if people mutually respect each other, they're going to try not to hurt each other, and that means not using words that aren't mutually understood to be acceptable. As for what those are, it seems to vary. Peter and Neal don't call each other idiots.

Thank God.

I find that so hard to understand...........and when I was growing up my dear maternal grandmother even censored us for saying "Shut up"
She explained nobody speaks to another person in respect when they
use such terms.
I reiterate what I said about McKay, I don't know anything about Peter and Neal, he does NOT respect and is mean spirited when he uses such derogatory terms.........
and for that reason, I have little respect for him.
It is NOT cute, nor is it endearing. It is disrespectful PERIOD.
Fortunately Sheppard is above it all..............

Shut up is pretty much banned from our house as well. Not that it stopes me from using it on the dogs when they won't stop barking.

I'll be honest - I think there's a small danger in tossing insults around like they aren't insults. Get too comfortable with it and you might end up using the terms on the wrong person. And as the saying goes, you get more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. Teasing is fun and harmless when everyone knows it's just teasing, but using terms of actual endearment do a lot for mental health. Negative words, even when used to tease, after a while they accumulate and run the risk of bringing people down.

Terms of endearment are never snide and demeaning..........at least that is my opinion.
It burns me up the way McKay demeans Sheppard who is NOT stupid by any means.
The military pilots I knew were NOT stupid........who reflected a trait which McKay seems to be lacking, common sense.
I personally do not believe the Sheppard who we know and love would take it as the writers keep indicating he would.
I just don't find it at all acceptable to dismiss it as 'just kidding, just fooling around......you know'
I don't buy it PERIOD.

BTW I can relate to a SHUT UP!! directed at a nonstop barking dog.
:D

For me, it depends on the rapport I have with the person, I guess? My siblings and I insult each other (playfully) all the time. Our mom never understood; I still remember how furious she got when she once saw my brother giving my sister the finger, but wow, that barely scratched the surface of the things we said and did. I will totally call my sister an idiot, but we're very close (even if we don't sound like it sometimes), and of course I wouldn't say such a thing if she was having a bad day or if it was something she was genuinely sensitive about.

I have some friends that I joke with in a very insulting manner and some that I don't. It depends on the person, what kind of sense of humor they have, and how they're likely to take it. At work the other day, for example, I told one of my friends that she doesn't look a day over 40 -- she's 35 -- and she got back at me later. :D But there are other people I know that I would never say such a thing to, because I know they wouldn't appreciate it.

My husband has been calling me Little Muffinhead lately because I have a shampoo that smells like strawberries; he says it makes me smell like I ought to be on display in a cabinet at Starbucks. No way I'd let a stranger get away with something like that -- or with making short jokes about me (I'm 5'1"), which my friends do all the time. It's just how we relate to each other. But there are some members of my family that I totally can't banter with like that, so I don't try; I don't have any desire to upset anyone or hurt their feelings. It's all in a sense of play.

But for that reason, insulting banter in TV, books and fic has never struck me as anything odd, as long as both characters seem to be enjoying it. And guys are usually thicker-skinned about that sort of thing than women; my guy friends and relatives are unbelievably insulting with each other (way worse than me and my women friends), but they'll turn right around from calling each other the most awful names and get along just fine.

Having said all of that ... in fiction, it does totally depend on what's appropriate for the character, and I've read stories that pushed various characters' canonical abrasiveness well beyond where I could see them going. (Actually, an overly whiny or verbally abusive McKay is one of my instant back-button things these days.)

See, that was why I was wondering. There are times, on shows and in books, where it doesn't strike me as odd (like in Dresden Files, when Murphy calls Harry an idiot) while other times it'll make me hem and haw uncertainly (like when Rodney calls John an idiot).

I grew up in a family that, though we are sarcastic with each other, we've never verbally insulted each other. So, yeah, it's not something I'm used to. Plus I'm an incredibly sensitive person, and have been on the wrong end of insults enough to have a very low tolerance for them. So insulting out of love is something I have a hard time wrapping my brain around. Even when it does work, it still makes me itch a little.

Aha! I'm glad you mentioned Dresden Files because when I wrote my above comment, I'd been trying to remember some fandom I'd been writing for lately where the characters canonically insult each other, and that's it -- Thomas and Harry specifically were what I'm thinking of; I noticed when I was writing them and trying to get the voices that they call each other "dumbass" and "dolt" and so forth on a regular basis.

But yeah, it does depend on the character, and there are some who wouldn't, and some lines that even a normally rather sarcastic character wouldn't cross. No matter how insulting my sister and I get with each other, for example, I wouldn't ever tease her about her weight, because that's something that she's sensitive about. It would just be nasty.

Idiot is a nice term when my husband and his friends get together. Believe me, they say far worse with all the love in their manly hearts. I know I've used it in one of my stories but Shep gave as good as he got. I based it on the interaction of my husband and his friends.

But with these characters, I couldn't see Rodney ever meaning it or namecalling. It would go against his respect and manly love for Shep.

As I said to Friendshipper, though I do get that for many it's just playful banter, for me it's not something I'm used to or even have a high tolerance for. My family may be sarcastic but I don't remember even my brother calling anyone an idiot, at least not to their face. And I've been on the wrong end of insults enough that I have a hard time putting up with it. If someone called me a rather insulting name under the assumption that I knew they were just teasing, even if I did know I doubt it would end well.

Now I have heard it misused. Guy thought he could use the B word at me in the continuation of a running joke. He's lucky his eyes weren't snatched right out of his head. It is very situational and person specific. If it doesn't fly with you then it doesn't. But I've grown up with it in some form or other and am used to it.

I've got to say as a Brit, can't speak for other cultures, its pretty common for friends, particularly male friends, to express affection in this way. I went through college being called "Weirdo" but I never doubted it was said with love and that the same people who called me that would have defended me to the hilt if anyone else had given me a hard time.

My older brother spent most of my teenage years referring to me as "Smell" among other things, my little brother often refers to me being "a mental" and I in turn call him Doofus but its all done with good humour and love. Its about knowing that person well enough to understand that the insult isn't really meant.

It's kind of the grown up equivalent of pulling the pig-tails of the girl you have a crush on.

My own family can be pretty sarcastic, but name calling was pretty much forbidden. We barely even get away with using "shut up."

I did have a friend who called me big foot - I am, like, six feet tall - and I was okay with it. It was one of the few times I was okay with a nickname that had to do with my height because it was one of the few times I was given a nickname out of endearment and not because someone was trying to be a jerk.

I can't speak to SGA, but with regards to WC...

I can't recall a specific instance where Peter called Neal an idiot (but that doesn't mean that he didn't - I just don't remember), but when he did - I am 100% certain that it was not intended to be wounding or insulting. One of the hallmarks of the relationship between Peter and Neal is how much Peter respects Neal's intelligence, how much he's attracted to it. That was established in Pilot - the now-famous bit of dialog between Peter and El:

Peter: Neal's smart. You know how much I like smart.
Elizabeth, joking: Is he as smart as those Ivy League Co-eds they throw at
you?
Peter: He's almost as brilliant as the woman I married.

This admiration is mutual - and it's one of the things that makes their partnership work so well. So, if Peter calls Neal an idiot - it's like calling a really tall guy "Tiny". Unless Neal does something idiotic, like stealing a gun and nearly shooting someone.

However, I can agree that when this is done repeatedly, and without reason, it can become verbal abuse.

I can see Peter telling Neal not to do something stupid or idiotic, and we know that Peter asked Mozzie to tell him if Neal was about to do something stupid. But for Peter to say, directly, "Neal, you are an idiot"... well, I'm of mixed opinions, really. I can see Peter doing that, but more out of frustration than out of teasing. Peter still wouldn't mean it, but I can't quite see him using such terms just to give Neal a hard time. But that has a lot to do with how I personally view Peter. He's a mature, by the book guy and I don't see him being that kind of playful with Neal.

But, that said, I could be wrong. I'm very "what you see is what you get" when it comes to shows, so until we actually see Peter tease Neal by calling him an idiot or what have you, then it's something I have a bit of a hard time wrapping my mind around.

A lot of people have said it already. For me it's normal and I have absolutely no problems with it as long as the people don't feel offended. I've called my family and relatives quite a few things, idiot being really light in comparison. Angry or playfully, it doesn't matter. In Brazil it is quite normal for friends and family to treat each other this way, especially guys. I really don't see Rodney calling John idiot or moron as being inappropriate. I really do like it because it makes me identify with the characters a lot more because that's the way I would treat them. Of course in fanfic it is sometimes taken too far because I never think Rodney would really mean these things (even though he might, playfully, say he did XD).

Well, as I said above I tend to be what you see is what you get, and because we have never actually heard Rodney call John an idiot, and because John doesn't always put up with Rodney being Rodney, It's just not something I see Rodney doing, Plus Rodney's a smart guy. If he's going to tease or insult John, he's going to come up with something way better than idiot or moron. The only time I can see Rodney saying idiot or moron is if he's angry (such as when he's talking about the people working under him). For Rodney to call John idiot... I don't know, it just seems really below him. But that's just how I see it.

Like I said to others, insults as terms of endearment isn't something I'm used to. I am used to sarcasm as endearment, though, and if we did happen to insult each other in a playful way, it was usually subtle in an attempt to be clever. But even then it's pretty rare.

I'll ditto what most of the others have said. I think most guys relate to each other that way. It's like one of them asking another how he married so far above his head - an obvious complement to his wife being wonderful but also suggesting the guy isn't.

I would have no problem with Rodney calling John an idiot because 1) John's cunning has saved them countless times and no one would really think he is an idiot, 2) Rodney slings insults indiscriminately, and 3) John knows that and would simply roll his eyes and call Rodney an equally insulting name.

I think, to me - and like I said to Erika - it just strikes me as below Rodney to use insults such as idiot or moron as a form of banter when he's so much smarter than that. I can see Rodney using idiot or moron when angry, say, at his underlings. But to use it on John, to me, it doesn't really make sense to me when Rodney could use verbal prowess to further show off his intelligence. Using idiot or moron as banter would make him seem less intelligent, so I would think he would try to avoid them except when angry.

And I just... I really can't see John letting Rodney get away with it. John puts up with a lot from Rodney, but he also draws lines where Rodney's abrasiveness is concerned. There's a lot he doesn't get away with, because he knows Rodney needs some limits.

But, again, these are my personal views. I can't say for sure if they are tainted by my own real life experience or not. With some characters, I can totally see the insulting banter (I was watching the A-Team movie the other day and BA calling Murdock a fool and other such names didn't bother me one bit. It wouldn't be them without the insults). But with other characters, I often get the impression there are limits.

It's a little strange and perhaps it's because of the influence of the shows, but I don't mind hearing Peter call Neal an idiot... it really sounds kind of like an endearment. There's also Snape calling Harry an idiot child (in the Severus AU's lol) and as you pointed out Rodney and John... though in this case I think John should protest much more, because Rodney can sound pretty condescending sometimes.

In real life it's kind of different, though there are instances when it happens. If it's said with a smile on the face, after I did something crazy or said something absurd, it's okay. But if it's said in all seriousness or with a frown/grimace, then hell yeah I would be angry and hurt. Also I have too much respect for family members or my friends to call them names, esp to their faces if it's really not in good spirit. I think the most important thing is HOW and WHY is it said. The spirit in which things are said can be much more hurtful than the actual words.

I have kind of mixed opinions when it comes to Neal and Peter banter, mostly because I don't see Peter as the type to use terms such as idiot or moron as a form of teasing. I could be wrong.

Rodney and John... though in this case I think John should protest much more, because Rodney can sound pretty condescending sometimes.

And I think this is why I have issues with the idea of Rodney calling John an idiot. John puts up with a lot from Rodney but he doesn't put up with everything (such as Rodney wasting time talking during a life or death situation). To me, if Rodney ever tried to call John an idiot, even if it was just playful banter, John would smack him in the back of the head. But, again, that's just me. I could be wrong, I don't know.

The comment I posted earlier was not well thought-out. Peter and Neal aren't my characters, and each of us has her own interpretation of them. I was wrong to say that Peter would never call Neal an idiot.

That said in all sincerity, I can't help adding what Neal might say to Peter in one of his smart-alec moods: "Yeah, Peter, you might call me an idiot. But only if you thought it would help keep me on the straight and narrow and out of prison to have one."

I don't really recall Peter having ever called Neal an idiot to his face. I know he's commented, when Neal wasn't around, about Neal's current escapades being stupid. But actually calling him an idiot directly to him I haven't seen happen, so you weren't off on your comment.

Does that mean Peter would never call Neal and idiot to his face? Given the right circumstances - i.e. Peter being furious with Neal - it's definitely possible. But for Peter to call Neal and idiot because they're bantering playfully... I don't know. It's not something I see either Neal or Peter doing as they just don't strike me as the type. They are both intelligent, and would much rather match wits when verbally sparring than degenerate to simplified name calling.

But that could be based a lot on my own personal experiences, as that is the way my family is. We prefer being witty over name calling, so it's hard for me to really understand the concept of calling someone names out of endearment.

My family can toss insults at each other in this way but....NOBODY outside the circle gets to do so. We're a cut one we all bleed clan! And you know how big my immediate family is :D I do think that it depends on the person and the conversation. The respondee needs to be aware that it's a joke or things can go horribly wrong. I did find Rodney a bit overly abusive, he'd surely be up before some sort if discrimination board in Australia :D

I think I'm starting to understand it now. Yet another to each their own ;) But the fact that everyone is different - each family, each person, whether male or female - it's going to vary. With some characters I can totally see the verbal sparring reaching epic insult proportions. But with others, I see some limits. I really can't see Rodney calling John an idiot or moron unless he's really stressed or angry. Even then, I can't really see John just smiling and letting Rodney get away with it. The boys teasing and insulting each other is the norm but I do see them as having lines drawn when it comes to what they give and what they take. While with other characters, though I haven't heard them get heavily insulting, I can totally see them going that far.

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Term of Endearment or Verbal Abuse?

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