No, it doesn't have to be one or the other

[kriadydragon]

Okay, so maybe this is simply a matter of me being a lot more aware of certain issues than I used to be but I feel like there's been a steady increase of the attitude that "All religious people are superstitious idiots who think science is evil." I mean, I know the debate of science vs. religion and you either believe in science or you believe in God has been around forever, but I've always considered it one of those incredibly stupid and pointless arguments because while, yes, granted, you do have your religions who totally reject science, as usual it is not the case with every single religion out there.

My faith, for example. We don't see God as some magician who waved his hand and, poof, there was the Earth. We believe he works in natural ways just as much as mysterious ways (as a religious teacher of mine once put it, God has a Ph.d in everything). For us, science doesn't disprove anything, instead it explains a lot. There are scientists out there who believe in God, and instead of their faith being diminished by science, it's increased. Speaking for myself, I adore shows that explore how the Earth might have been made, or the moon, or the galaxy, because it's so fascinating and reminds me just how awesome God's creations are. As for those bits and tiddles of science that I don't agree with... for one, I just don't worry about it. For another, come on, scientists disagree about stuff all the time, and what's fact today may be disproved by tomorrow. Thus why I don't worry about it.

So, yeah, don't give me this crap about it's either science or religion and you can't be a scientist and be religious, or that being religious stifles the need to ask questions and make discoveries. It's sort of like with that Baptist church who protests funerals - they do not represent religion and religious people as a whole. So just because someone says they're Christian don't even assume that means they reject science. And just because someone's a scientist does not automatically mean they don't believe in God.

I've been on this major "don't judge a religion by the fanatics" kick lately. Or, more accurately, "quit it with the religious-shaming" kick. I feel like anti-religious feelings (and I mean really nasty anti-religious feelings) have been sky-rocketing, lately. Then again, I feel there's been a drastic increase of having no respect for other people's opinions and beliefs, period. That it's gone from let's agree to disagree, to you don't agree with me therefore you're stupid, to you don't agree with me therefore you are evil and must be verbally ripped to shreds and shunned (something our family had a personal experience with just last month, thank you very much politics :P I won't go into it except to say that something hurtful and insulting had been said, simply because our political opinions differed from that of someone else).

Comments

[black-raven135.livejournal.com]

"...I feel there's been a drastic increase of having no respect for other people's opinions and beliefs, period..."

I have been deeply troubled by this lately.

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

Stating your opinion is scary these days. People don't just argue, they practically attack you like you're public enemy number one. :S

[black-raven135.livejournal.com]

(((((NODS))))))
Very
It is not good enough anymore to just disagree, they feel the ((((((need)))))) to shut you up totally.........
I find that very very scary.

[kristen999.livejournal.com]

I'm not religious, but I never understood why science and religion can't go hand-in-hand.

Why can't science be because of God's will if you believe that way? I mean, why can't the whole Earth that was built in seven days be symbolic and that seven days really was the billions of years et el needed for the Galaxy to happen?

It's frustrating to think the those who have faith in the spiritual can't embrace that the spiritual causes the logical, scientific things to happen?

If God is God, than why can't he or she be the chief architect that puts everything in motion?

*shrugs*

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

I think it comes down to so much butting heads that it became a matter of all or nothing. In the case with some religions it comes down to taking everything in the Bible literally and forgetting that there's a lot of symbolism involved (For example, I'm reading the Book of Revelations right now, and the trick to reading Revelations is to remember that it's about a guy being shown the future - a guy who lives in a time of camels and horses and no technology what so ever - so he's not going to know what things like tanks and cars are. He's going to try and describe them the best that he can, and it's going to sound weird and kind of fantasy-ish. But when you sit down and really think it over, you come to make connections. I got all excited when I realized those giant fire-spitting metal insects being talked about described tanks and jets to a T. I mean, how else would a guy who knows nothing of technology describe technology? By using what he does know).

While science can be very prove it, prove it, prove it - if you can't see, touch or taste it then it isn't real. But there were people who believed in the atom and that we were all made out of tiny particles waaaay before the microscope was invented.

So it's basically this two way street of... well... pointless arguing, really.

[kristen999.livejournal.com]

*nods*

The only time I butt heads with people over religion is over the literal interpretation of the bible. Anyone who has played the telephone game knows when knowledge is passed down over not only time, but different languages, the sentences and meanings change. The concept, the bases is still intact, but the bias of the 'time' is still thee. How else do you explain the acceptance of slavery and the mention of dragons in the original texts?

It's when people use exact lines in the bible to support very unkind things that I get upset.

Okay, maybe I veered off course, but it's still about taking the subject material and accepting the substance while having an open mind that the source material is very old and written by those of another era.

:)

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

Heh, the Bible our church uses has the Greek and Hebrew translations of certain words at the bottom of the pages. Very helpful stuff, but anti-climactic if you're a fantasy buff ;) The word dragon was actually in reference to jackals, and unicorn to I believe it was oxen.

But that's why people need to study and ponder what they read rather than take it at face value. There used to be a lot of things in the Bible that troubled me, but now they make a lot of sense.

[aim2misbhave.livejournal.com]

Yeah, this. To me, the beauty of science and math is like a part of how I understand God.

And this is despite the fact that my mom tried her best to raise me to believe in the most anti-science positions taken by Christians aside from the "dinosaurs-didn't-exist" position. Although she did try to keep us away from dinosaur stuff on the basis that we might learn too much about evolution *eyeroll*

That said, my answer is that from a scientific standpoint, it's theoretically possible that beings that exist outside our space and time dimensions would be able to fit all the criteria for most deities and other spiritual beings. And, since we don't have the capacity or technology to measure it, then we should leave it as an open question until then.

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I do understand the fear of having one replacing the other - that is, the belief that embracing science means to reject God, and that embracing God is to reject science.

But that doesn't have to be the case and, in fact, shouldn't be the case at all. Science doesn't disprove God just as God doesn't disprove science. You can be a scientist and believe in God, and watch those nifty shows about how the universe was created and have your faith strengthened instead of demolished. You don't have to choose one over the other.

Plus, what we don't know now we'll know eventually, like the role dinosaurs played ;)

[phoenixi77.livejournal.com]

I am studying science with hopes of becoming a scientist in a couple of years. I try to understand how certain genes and proteins work. But I also believe in God. I pray to him everyday that I continue to work and study hard and get success soon.

And when certain experiments give strange results, I blame him for making such complicated systems in our body ;)

But some people in my lab are atheists. One guy even told me that working in a scientific field, he has stopped believing in God.

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

I think science is very awesome (even though I wasn't all that great at it in highschool and college :/). It has actually helped to increase my own faith at times, which is why I don't understand why some people think that to become a scientist means no longer being able to believe in God :/

[timespirt.livejournal.com]

I believe in both science and religion. I like to think I have a mind of my own and am not one of the clueless masses.

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I think another misconception that people have is that if you're religious than you either refuse to ask questions or are afraid to. Which is total bull. My own churches encourages questions, because as was mentioned below God didn't give us intelligence just to waste it. We're meant to learn, and the only way to learn is to ask questions and make discoveries.

[iamhere23.livejournal.com]

I don't think they're mutually exclusive, people just argue that they are. I think it's personal anyway, but like you said, there's just no respect for opinions and beliefs. If you don't believe in God, some of the people you know are appalled and try to "save" you. If you do believe, people judge you and don't understand how you can believe in science and God at the same time. I say, believe what you believe and think what you want to think. Whatever it is, there will always be people that believe and think the opposite, but that's just the way it is *shrugs*. We have to learn to make peace with this even though everything would be much simpler if it wasn't so.

[iamhere23.livejournal.com]

"That it's gone from let's agree to disagree, to you don't agree with me therefore you're stupid, to you don't agree with me therefore you are evil and must be verbally ripped to shreds and shunned."

Oh, and this has happened to me too recently. My uncle (who is a religious fanatic) did this to me in Facebook of all places! He verbally ripped me to pieces and condemned me to hell because my best friend is gay. He then proceeded to un-friend me...

I abhor his comments and his behavior and just his... hate, towards everything that's different to him or what he believes in. I don't understand it, but even so I struggle to respect him, even if he doesn't respect me.

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

Oi :S I really dislike fanatics of any kind, and sadly they're the ones who always manages to speak the loudest.

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

Heh, it kind of reminds me of fanfiction and all the ship wars, where people will verbally rip you to pieces if you don't agree that character A and character B were meant to be together. It's just... all so pointless, because there is no right or wrong answer.

[(Anonymous)]

Hi, I don't know if I've ever posted a comment here before, but I've enjoyed reading your fic (I'm a white collar fan)!

Anyways, I just wanted to say that, as both a biologist and a christian myself, I really like your post! I was a biologist before I was a Christian (I got interested in religion in college, and was somewhat surprised that I came to believe), but I've never felt like there was any conflict between the two, for me. The natural world has always filled me with a sense of awe. Now I tend to think, how cool is it that God came up with the laws of nature/physics/etc, and created a world that follows them?! ;) And I get *paid* to study this stuff and try to figure it out! ;)

But like you, I'm not a fan of the stereotypes about scientists and christians. Of the people I've personally encountered, the vast majority of christians have no problem with my research, and many think it's cool or interesting (even though I'm studying early embryo development, which could potentially be a little controversial, if someone *wanted* to create controversy). And the vast majority of scientists have no problem with my religion, even if they don't agree with my beliefs, or just don't care. Maybe I've just been lucky, but I think there are a lot more tolerant people out there than the news would have us believe. ;) It's just that the fundamentalists tend to make better (more flashy, more controversial) news. I think it's just so much easier to stereotype a religion (or a country, or a culture, or a political party, or lifestyle) and set them up as some scary "Other" who's nothing like us, than it is to understand or convey how complex everyone and everything is. Okay, I think I may be rambling now, so I'm gonna stop. I just wanted to say that I appreciate what you posted. --Mrohr.

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

Thank you :D

I do think most people are pretty tolerant. Problem is the intolerant ones tend to be "louder" about things, and by being loud it stirs up all kinds of knee-jerk reactions that leave people defensive rather than willing to talk things out. There are sites I used to go to that I don't anymore because too many people were doing things that were insulting as their way of getting their point across (which it didn't) and I got tired of it.

I really don't get why some people don't realize that religion and science go hand in hand for a lot of people. There was this one thing on the news where this celebrity scientist was calling for parents to stop teaching their kids religion because he thought it was getting in the way of these kids asking questions and learning how the world works. Now, granted, there are some faiths that are pretty much "No questions, just accept!", but not every faith is like that. So for this person to say it's either science or religion but it can't be both is just insulting and narrow-minded. It can be both.

[sholio]

*nods* I agree! And I'm sorry people are being jerks. I guess it's human nature to judge any group by its loudest, most obnoxious members, but that doesn't make it right. I wish more people would stop and think and not judge people based on preconceived notions about what "that kind of people" are supposed to be like.

And I have never been able to understand why so many people (on both sides) think there has to be a conflict between religion and science. The way I see it, I guess, is that they teach us about different things. Science studies the physical workings of the world (atoms and gravity and biology and such); religion -- well, belief systems in general -- teaches lessons about how to live. Religion doesn't have much to say about atoms and gravity; science doesn't have much to say about the care and feeding of one's soul or the meaning of life. But they're both about finding wonder and beauty in the everyday, and I can't see why both of them can't coexist peacefully.

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

Science studies the physical workings of the world (atoms and gravity and biology and such); religion -- well, belief systems in general -- teaches lessons about how to live. Religion doesn't have much to say about atoms and gravity; science doesn't have much to say about the care and feeding of one's soul or the meaning of life. But they're both about finding wonder and beauty in the everyday, and I can't see why both of them can't coexist peacefully.

This, right here. I love this :D It is so utterly true. Arguing science vs. religion is basically just arguing apples or oranges. There's no reason for it! You don't have to give up one in order to believe in the other, and I know from personal experience that once they're allowed to coexist then things make so much more sense.

[imbecamiel.livejournal.com]

Hear, hear. Religion and science are FAR from incompatible. As Galileo said - I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. Yeah, I may have issues with a few scientific theories, for multiple reasons... but plenty of atheists have issues with them as well from a purely factual standpoint, and no one can blame their lack of faith for that. As you said, scientists are constantly learning more about the world, and needing to revise long-held beliefs - it's not as if challenging some point reflects a rejection of the whole. And yet... when it comes to certain things, the sheer emotional reaction, and even refusal to consider valid contradictory information, from some people claiming to be working on pure logic and facts is... well, kind of more reflective of people shouting, "Die, heretic! How dare you commit such sacrilege!" XP I do think that part of the problem comes when some people treat science as their religion, and therefore have difficulty when someone challenges any aspect of what, for them, are deeply-held beliefs, not facts and theories always subject to further testing and modification when new discoveries are made.

And oh yes, on the "People who don't agree with me are evil and need to be crushed into silence!" tendencies. They do seem to be getting worse and worse lately. I thought "tolerance" was supposed to be such a big thing these days... but it seems what it's actually turned into is "I will tolerate you and love you if you believe in and support exactly the same things I do - but if you're one of those stupid, nasty people I deem intolerant because you disagree with me about something, then of COURSE you've lost your right to an opinion, no matter what the reasons behind it!" :/

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

Yes! Exactly! If God didn't want us trying to figure out how things worked then science wouldn't exist and we wouldn't have the technology and understanding we have today. And science is by no means one hundred percent fact, because theories and discoveries are always changing.

Yeah, people talk the talk of tolerance but when they walk the walk are mostly stumbling. People don't even debate anymore, they just go right to the insults most of the time. Or jump right to having a superiority complex. In fact having debates are scary these days since you don't know what the result might be - maybe it ends harmlessly, or maybe it ends with you not only being shunned but also actively demonized and harassed. Which is sad, especially when you feel the need to speak out.

[ladyrose42.livejournal.com]

Of course bashing religion is a good excuse to lower your moral and/or ethical standards. Then again there is nothing worse than a born again militant Christian. I much prefer the soft sell by demostration of how you live your life to the this is how you should live your life. Although the trials of Job would challenge anyone, who said faith should be easy or only on Sunday. I swear when I waitressed the post church diners, after their fire and brimstone, were my worst customers when they should have been my best. As for science, people will use any excuse for belief or non-belief. Rambling off now.

[x-erikah-x.livejournal.com]

For me it doesn't make sense for a person to believe in religion and not believe in science. If God created us, then he created science. Living creatures have DNA, plants grow, children are born and cells multiply. Suns are born and they die. The explanation that it happens through the interaction of atoms and gases doesn't exclude that they were created by God.

I've given up trying to express my opinions on this matter because it caused a few disagreements already. If people at least respected different opinions without necessarily agreeing, then I'd accept it, but they just label us, judge and insult and it really hurts.